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Offline AnnaMall

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg525131#msg525131
« Reply #288 on: July 24, 2012, 09:59:03 pm »
First timer in the leagues and I have to say CL is pretty bad. Don't know what is the main problem maybe low participants, maybe KRACH,maybe borring meta, maybe all of the above. Started with ambitions to see how well I can do in the leagues....atm I just want to finish 30 games so I won't get banned. Have been in chat looking for opponents daily and matched once or never with most of them.

Some suggestions I can think of...
1.make it obligatory to fight every participant once or twice in the 3 months.
2.Make a league guide to help "shy" players more willing to play in them (took me a year to join one ?_?)
3.KRACH seems to promote opponent choosing/inactivity. Can work better with first suggestion
4.rootranger's suggestions seem very solid

Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg525380#msg525380
« Reply #289 on: July 25, 2012, 05:26:34 pm »
re: AnnaMall's comments:

This is my first time in CL (or any league) and yeah, the low participants make it really hard to find matches.  I've got the most played matches of anyone in CL, and I still feel like I'm never getting to play, so it's got to be even worse for other people.  It would be nice to attract more people to CL.  Even BL seems to have troubles with finding matches, although not as bad.  BL is more attractive because it's seen as more balanced (I'd argue they're mostly equal, but that's for another thread) and because not everyone has played long enough to have the upgrades necessary to compete in CL.

KRACH does have problems, but so does the previous Elo system.  Unfortunately, both of them suffer in that when applied to very small groups like BL/CL, the ratings are not as accurate as they would be in, say, a 500 person league playing more games with each other.

The meta does have some problems, particularly with a few of the shards.  I'd argue that banning a few of them, as well as discord, would improve the meta.  The other trouble with the meta is because the card pool is small, deck variety is also small, and there isn't much room for skill differentiation between top players.  As a result both of the narrow meta and the problem with KRACH in small groups, I predicted that the top players in league would simply be those who played the most games, and if memory serves, me and blarp have the most in CL and are 3rd and 2nd, and in BL cheesy has the most and is in 2nd.

Offline Cheesy111

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg525384#msg525384
« Reply #290 on: July 25, 2012, 05:40:29 pm »
re: AnnaMall's comments:

This is my first time in CL (or any league) and yeah, the low participants make it really hard to find matches.  I've got the most played matches of anyone in CL, and I still feel like I'm never getting to play, so it's got to be even worse for other people.  It would be nice to attract more people to CL.  Even BL seems to have troubles with finding matches, although not as bad.  BL is more attractive because it's seen as more balanced (I'd argue they're mostly equal, but that's for another thread) and because not everyone has played long enough to have the upgrades necessary to compete in CL.

KRACH does have problems, but so does the previous Elo system.  Unfortunately, both of them suffer in that when applied to very small groups like BL/CL, the ratings are not as accurate as they would be in, say, a 500 person league playing more games with each other.

The meta does have some problems, particularly with a few of the shards.  I'd argue that banning a few of them, as well as discord, would improve the meta.  The other trouble with the meta is because the card pool is small, deck variety is also small, and there isn't much room for skill differentiation between top players.  As a result both of the narrow meta and the problem with KRACH in small groups, I predicted that the top players in league would simply be those who played the most games, and if memory serves, me and blarp have the most in CL and are 3rd and 2nd, and in BL cheesy has the most and is in 2nd.

I disagree HEAVILY on pretty much everything you said (sorry).  BL is fairly easy to find matches for, but people seem to be more lethargic about it than usual and thus are not actively searching for matches as much.  BL was seen as more balanced and less coinflip-y than CL because it was slower and had more competitive strategies, and while this was probably true last season it has not been true this season. 

Krach and ELO both have problems, yes, but ELO's problem is that it overestimates newbies while KRACH's problem is that it encourages inactivity and penalizes actually playing the game.  Odii has the insane rank he has in part because he plays so few games.  I would have played many more games but the penalty for losing a game is severe enough compared to the bonus for winning a game that it's honestly not worth it.  I predict that the more games Odii plays, the more his score will drop, simply because Krach is not a good system for a game that relies as significantly upon sheer luck as elements.  It's not worth it, statistically, for Odii to play YCH simply because Odii is expected to win such a high percentage of the time that if he loses even one match to not drawing pillars or creatures or anything even if he predicts and deckbuilds ABSOLUTELY PERFECTLY he'll lose more score than he can ever make up from playing YCH.  In regards to my high score, it's mostly because I played the heck out of SoFoBow in order to both score well and prove its overpoweredness. 

The meta has problems? Absolutely.  SoFo and SoPa have almost turned BL into rock-paper-scissors.  I agree that banning some shards and discord would improve the meta.  But Leagues is NOT the place to ban cards to improve the meta.  Leagues is specifically a place, the only place, where you can play a completely unrestricted competitive game, and it should stay that way. 

Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg525462#msg525462
« Reply #291 on: July 25, 2012, 07:59:57 pm »
Hehe, no reason to apologize for disagreeing, at least if you can back it up with facts, rather than 'dragonsdemesne is an ass or something' :p  However, it doesn't seem like you are actually disagreeing with anything I said, except the part where I claimed BL and CL probably have about the same variety in the meta.

BL is definitely easier to find matches for, but just based on what I see in chat when I'm looking for CL games, it's not that easy to find BL games, either, and while I saw a lot more updates on the BL thread earlier in the season, it's slowed down now so it's barely played more than CL.  I cannot speak for anything in the BL meta last season (or BL this season, for that matter) as I did not participate.  It is obvious, of course, that BL is slower, and this does mean that slower decks have more of a chance.  However, on the flip side of things, it makes other decks weaker.  I would probably never play an immorush in BL, for instance, because immolation into lava golem is quite a bit weaker than cremation into lava destroyer, but most of the good creature removal cards are still easily playable in BL, like reverse time, lightning bolt, and shockwave.

And yeah, Krach and Elo have problems, but I can't really think of better systems than either of those.  We certainly can't go with games won, because that just rewards the most active and those who farm newbies, rather than those with actual skill.  Win percentage removes the activity part, but you can still farm newbies, and it rewards inactivity as well if you get a high win rate early.  You're also correct that as Odii plays games, his rating will drop.  He's a top level player, but his true rating (if such a thing even exists) will be close to the other top players in BL, rather than the insane rating he has now.  If everyone in BL had to play 1000 games, for instance, he'd most likely still be in the prize runnings somewhere, but he wouldn't have 2-3x or more the rating that everyone else does, for the reasons that you've stated. 

If we played more games in a season, Elo would probably be a better choice.  If we played way more games than we do, then only a small percentage would involve overestimated newbies, so the overall effect would be smaller.  I used to play Scrabble online a lot with Elo rating, and that's what I observed there with the elo system.  If 99% of games did not involve either overestimated newbies or underestimated experts just starting the season, the effect would be minor.  With only a few dozen games each played between a small pool of people, a much larger percentage of games in Elo last season would fall under this category and skew the ratings.

Again, I can't speak to the BL meta, but the same kind of thing happens in CL.  It's a rock-paper-scissors between a few themes, like SoFo, SoSa vs purify, discord, SoI, and a few other offenders.  I still haven't seen a single shard of patience in CL yet, though, but that has to do more with how few slower stall type decks there are, and how even fewer of those are actually competitive.

For the bans... yeah, I can understand wanting to keep leagues 100% open; that's one thing that bugs me sometimes in some tourneys is how many banned cards they have.  (depends on the week)  It's been suggested before, but a deck size increase and/or card limit decrease, like 40 card decks/4 copies per deck, or perhaps a limited restricted list, like certain OP cards are capped at less than 6 copies (maybe 2 or 3) although the problem with those rules is that unless forced into code, we can theoretically cheat and use more copies.

Offline Onizuka

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg525463#msg525463
« Reply #292 on: July 25, 2012, 08:03:23 pm »

1.make it obligatory to fight every participant once or twice in the 3 months.

If you're a person who can only be on a few hours each day (and there are most likely people like that, not that I'm one of them), this screws people who have completely opposite schedules than other players. Also considering the massive new players in BL, its insane to force a play with everyone.
You're just as selfish as I am. You're just not as good at it yet.

Offline Jenkar

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg525467#msg525467
« Reply #293 on: July 25, 2012, 08:26:19 pm »
it's slowed down now so it's barely played more than CL.
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Offline regen2k9

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg525646#msg525646
« Reply #294 on: July 26, 2012, 04:18:04 am »
@Maul, Dragons, and Cheesy:

Regarding KRACH vs. ELO, I'm currently developing a rating system that 1) uses recursion (like in KRACH), so your score will be calculated based on future games that you and your opponents play and 2) uses a scaled points per victory system like ELO uses (where each win is worth a set amount, scaled by the strength of your opponent relative to your score).  When I'm finished I'll post the detailed results (it WILL take a while however, since I'm doing this at the same time as my job, my night classes, and preparing for trials).  This should ideally give a "best of both worlds" scenario between ELO and KRACH, combining ELO's reward for activity and KRACH's recursion method. 
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Offline dragonsdemesne

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg525658#msg525658
« Reply #295 on: July 26, 2012, 04:42:16 am »
I wish you luck with that, regen2k9 :)  It's too bad math won't create more players or cards for the game, though :p  At least it'll hopefully make the scoring system better.

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg525682#msg525682
« Reply #296 on: July 26, 2012, 05:16:36 am »
reflect banning makes SoW uncounterable.

I also add that there should be a small ban system. Both players agree to ban one card of their choosing, so for the next 3 duels, up to 2 selected cards may not be used. This will help stop OP SoFo as well as limit SoSa.

Offline Cheesy111

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg526004#msg526004
« Reply #297 on: July 26, 2012, 09:11:18 pm »
reflect banning makes SoW uncounterable.

I also add that there should be a small ban system. Both players agree to ban one card of their choosing, so for the next 3 duels, up to 2 selected cards may not be used. This will help stop OP SoFo as well as limit SoSa.
The meta has problems? Absolutely. I agree that banning some shards and discord would improve the meta.  But Leagues is NOT the place to ban cards to improve the meta.  Leagues is specifically a place, the only place, where you can play a completely unrestricted competitive game, and it should stay that way.

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Re: Elements PvP League - Suggestions and Feedback https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg527774#msg527774
« Reply #298 on: August 01, 2012, 02:20:31 am »
Well having to guess between 3 decks for about 90 % of my games ain't fun ... All I am facing is shard golems decks, shard of sofo decks and sosa decks.  So I will painly finish my 30 matches but likely wont reenter if no changes are made.

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Re: Beginner's League 2/2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg531303#msg531303
« Reply #299 on: August 10, 2012, 03:20:23 am »
When will the next season start?
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