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Elements the Game => Design Theory => Card Ideas and Art => Pre-Smithy Ideas => Topic started by: Nevzara on August 28, 2016, 04:27:36 am

Title: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Nevzara on August 28, 2016, 04:27:36 am
The idea ties in to time much better however time already has a scorpion, I chose earth because of the pulveriser which has a similar ability.

For each successful attack destroy the top card of opponent's deck.

The idea is to speed up deck out wins, plus having just one of them in your deck negates the infinite loop caused by Eternity.
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Hyroen on August 28, 2016, 04:29:29 am
Explain thematically why :earth Earth would have such a mechanic.
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Nevzara on August 28, 2016, 04:32:39 am
Pulveriser destroy's permenant's, Earthquake destroy's pillars, this card would just destroy cards not yet on the field.
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Aves on August 28, 2016, 04:44:02 am
Different types of card destruction have different amounts of impact on the game. Destroying any permanent outright with just one card is considered normal, but destroying any creature outright with just one card is considered brokenly OP. Lightning can kill most creatures, and fire bolt can kill any non-immortal creature, but those cards have limits, either by creature HP in the case of lightning or by increased cost (more quanta needed) in the case of fire bolt.

Forcing discards of cards still in deck would be very difficult, if not impossible, to balance.
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Nevzara on August 28, 2016, 05:47:42 am
I understand what you're saying but I disagree.
Let's go with the obvious choice which is an ether earth duo, fractual, shield, lobotomiser, and this scorpion. A basic shield would shut that deck down entirely.

Or let's compare health to this scorpion, health you need to do a minimum of 100 damage, but you could have ten dragons doing ten damage each pretty easy for a OHKO, this creature could never OHKO and against most decks it'd be too slow. I mean compared to other scorpions it's heaps underpowered as poison will stack, this won't.
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: ARTHANASIOS on August 28, 2016, 05:58:53 am
Is this scorpion going to enter the field with an attack score of 1 (forest scorpion) or 0 (dune scorpion, deathstalker)? In the first case, it is OP. In the second one, it is more likely UP. I think balancing this would be difficult...
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Nevzara on August 28, 2016, 06:06:52 am
I'd set it at 1 but cost it at 5 or so.
If I have no support I'll scrap the idea.
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Espithel on August 28, 2016, 10:08:34 pm
Consider this:
We start with 23 cards in our deck, which is 30 - 7. You'll have more if you're a stally deck.
As a result, it takes 23 turns to die from deckout.
This card halves that to 12.5 turns, assuming you get one out on the first turn, which is impossible but nuance makes stuff complicated.
100 / 12.5 is 8.

Therefore, it is safe to assume that a single copy of this card is as good as a single creature with 8 ATK, give or take complications.
This maths gets weird with multiple copies, fails to factor in how you can only have 6 scorpions but many more cards that also deal damage as well as you not likely to get a scorpion out until later, and how milling affects the board more than being hit in the face.

You would be hard pressed to balance out an eight-damage fighter that also messes with your opponent's draws.

Milling is just one of those mechanics that fundamentally can't work with current ETG's system. If it was less than six copies of a card per deck, it could work. If it was minimum deck size 40, it could work.
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: serprex on August 28, 2016, 10:12:36 pm
It doesn't really mess with the opponent's draws, not counting RT. Balance around 8 attack, 10 cost probably leaves it a bit UP, but depends on health

It runs into a bit of a conflicting role as it should be in the realm of bypass speed since it counters healing yet decks with healing tend towards having over 30 cards
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Espithel on August 28, 2016, 10:21:28 pm
I meant messing up draws as in being capable of removing cards that could deal with it or something else that you want from your deck.
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: serprex on August 29, 2016, 01:49:12 am
But without knowledge, you're just as likely to be drawing them into those answers
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Nevzara on August 29, 2016, 02:34:34 am
If you're lucky you might destroy an answer but statistically it's going to be mostly pillars.
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: danil on August 29, 2016, 02:53:20 am
I can see a deck based around these scorpions and SoBs. That would be terrifying ?_?
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Nevzara on August 29, 2016, 03:08:30 am
What if we drop the idea of it being a scorpion, make it a 1 attack 5 defence, 8 cost creature.
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Nevzara on August 29, 2016, 03:09:04 am
Maybe a millipede, seame suitably creepy
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Mr Muffin on August 29, 2016, 04:15:17 am
I'm not sure if I like this in earth because that's where stone skin is. I'm not sure where I would put it I'm not a very creative guy.
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Manuel on August 29, 2016, 04:26:08 am
The idea ties in to time much better however time already has a scorpion, I chose earth because of the pulveriser which has a similar ability.

For each successful attack destroy the top card of opponent's deck.

The idea is to speed up deck out wins, plus having just one of them in your deck negates the infinite loop caused by Eternity.

how pulvy is similar to this idea? pulvy is a weapon, it require  :earth :gravity for work, it destroy perms, there are immaterial perms and u fail against protect artifact: your card can mill every type of card, even immaterial cards.

keep in mind this:

magic the gathering is played with min 60 cards, max 4 copies of each card
yugioh is played with min 40 cards, max 3 copies of each card

both of these games have mill cards, both games has a graveyard.

elements is played with 30 cards with max 6 copies of each card, no graveyard.

there is no point in design a card with a broken effect like mill your opponent's decks, when for balancing u are forced to make something really, really underpowered like:

What if we drop the idea of it being a scorpion, make it a 1 attack 5 defence, 8 cost creature.

who would play something like that?
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Nevzara on August 29, 2016, 04:51:54 am
If pulvy destroyed a random permanent instead of target permanent would you use it?
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Manuel on August 29, 2016, 05:08:21 am
If pulvy destroyed a random permanent instead of target permanent would you use it?

the most important part of my post wasn't about pulvy, was about

keep in mind this:

magic the gathering is played with min 60 cards, max 4 copies of each card
yugioh is played with min 40 cards, max 3 copies of each card
both of these games have mill cards, both games has a graveyard.
elements is played with 30 cards with max 6 copies of each card, no graveyard.

i don't want to seem harsh, but: in this case u ignored 90% of what i wrote (and i hope u didn't do the same with other posts, because we are trying to help u), if u open a thread, be open to positive criticism
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Nevzara on August 29, 2016, 07:19:14 am
Yeah I get what you're saying. But you're comparing very different games, magic has maybe a hundred different cards that mill, elements has none. I get that this concept is hard to balance but it'll evolve the meta in a fun way and it'll create a few new competitive decks. You know?
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Manuel on August 29, 2016, 07:54:08 am
Yeah I get what you're saying. But you're comparing very different games, magic has maybe a hundred different cards that mill, elements has none.

u miss the point, i'm not comparing 2 games, i'm trying to make u think on NUMBERS, the ratio of the same cards permitted in a deck and the min cards of the deck
 
Quote
it'll evolve the meta in a fun way

for u is funny playing against a gold/plat deck with x12 scorpion and x12 sobr able to deck out u in 5 turns?
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Nevzara on August 29, 2016, 08:34:20 am
Would it be so bad if decks started getting larger? Instead of this thing we do at the moment where any non stall deck with more than 30 cards is dismissed?

If all you're interested in is shooting ideas down without giving alternatives then why are you here man? I'm just trying to have a discussion and you're feeling very attacking.
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Manuel on August 29, 2016, 10:13:13 am
Would it be so bad if decks started getting larger?

this game is played with 90% of decks composed by 30 cards from the beginning, 7 years ago; u are suggesting a card that modify this, running more cards makes every deck less effective, because the deckout is inevitable, all for an ability that should't be in this game.

is this a good thing?

Quote
I'm just trying to have a discussion and you're feeling very attacking

like i said in another post, i am not attacking u: i am trying to explain how this game works, but is hard, really really hard
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Espithel on August 29, 2016, 10:28:34 am
who would play something like that?

I would o3o
Title: Re: Rock Scorpion/ Titanium Scorpion
Post by: Manuel on August 29, 2016, 10:46:20 am
who would play something like that?

I would o3o

in a combo with butterfly effect on singularity is super strong o3o

btw, espi ninja'd me on the thoughts about this card, so @nevzara be sure to read is post in the first page
blarg: