Return (time)

[dabamda]

A spell that works on any creature or permanent that can be targeted.

Note that using this on your own bone wall would essentially be broken (free quanta and a bone wall for 1 charge)
Using it on any other permanents with charges / turn counters would also be too strong. Therefor it should not work on these permanents (wings, dim shield, ...)

[furballdn]

Weaker RT that can work on permanents?

[dabamda]

This card is much more powerful than reverse time:

* It can remove a creature to prevent it from using it's ability (because each creature has to wait one turn before using an ability)
* It can remove a shield for one turn so you can attack (if it is not protected)
* It can return your own creatures to your hand (for many reasons including poison / damage)
* You can use it to control your quanta: Return a lower cost creature to summon a higher cost creature.
* It can get rid of cloak for one turn.
* You can return a weapon to your hand to use another one, without loosing your current weapon card, and you get your quanta back from the weapon.
* It can be used to return permanents that only last a few turns so you can replay them. For example: wings, cloak, phase shield. This would effectively recharge them for only 2 time quanta. This would be too powerful so it has to be nerfed.

[furballdn]

This card is much more powerful than reverse time:

* It can remove a creature to prevent it from using it's ability (because each creature has to wait one turn before using an ability)
* It can remove a shield for one turn so you can attack (if it is not protected)
* It can return your own creatures to your hand (for many reasons including poison / damage)
* You can use it to control your quanta: Return a lower cost creature to summon a higher cost creature.
* It can get rid of cloak for one turn.
* You can return a weapon to your hand to use another one, without loosing your current weapon card, and you get your quanta back from the weapon.

>RT does the exact same at a cheaper price
>Deflag/steal would be better, although this gives a way to deal with shields. The bad part? You're essentially paying 2 for no shields, but your opponent immediately gets their shield back the next turn.
>Okay, this point does differentiate it from RT slightly.
>Good point.
>Same as second part. Except, that when it's played down again, does it keep counters?

Does this keep counters? Like if you removed a 2 turn dim shield, when played down again, is it still 2 turns or is it 3 turns?

[dabamda]

When you play a dim shield, then it always lasts the same amount of turns. That is why return should not work on permanents with a certain duration.

Reverse time does not allow you to draw a card...
Reverse time on your own creature returns it to the top of the deck so you have to draw that card again
Reverse time does not give you back the creatures quanta...

When you use return on an enemy creature, you spend 2 time to prevent it from using its ability but you did not loose card advantage because you can draw a new card.

The value of return is not that you can use it on enemy creatures, but that you can use it flexibly at almost no cost since you get to draw a new card.

[furballdn]

>I'm afraid I didn't understand what you meant. Let me just ask. If you return a 2 counters left dim shield, and it's replayed, how many counters does it have?

>That is the main reason why hardly anyone RTs their own creature. The only reason they'd do that is if it was antimattered, since poison and other stuff on your own creatures are highly situational.
>As a control card to your opponent, this is way worse than RT. Not only does it refund quanta to your opponent, it also gives them the next draw as well, with RT delaying their next draw as well as removing precious quanta. In a metagame dominated by speedbows that run on sparse quanta, RT is a very devastating card. RT also is extremely cheap, and it prevents an enemy creature from using its ability as well.

>So far, the only reason I see this card being useful is to take out your own permanents for quanta redistribution, but that's still very situational.

[dabamda]

The card is a hard counter for momentum, blessing, and other cards like that...

And if you cant use it, you can get rid of it for 2 quanta and draw another card (just use it on any permanent that is yours and replay that permanent).

The card is a soft counter for lava destroyers forest spirits and other creatures that grow stronger each turn... again at almost no cost for the user (2 quanta to 'reset' a forest spirit so you can devour it).

[furballdn]

>Implying RT isn't the exact same thing but much better

>So why not use a precog? If you return a permanent to your hand, you're also paying 2 quanta. If you return your hourglass, you essentially only get 2 quanta back.

>RT costs 1 quanta and is more devastating as opponent has to pay for creature again.

You still did not address my question of whether timed cards have their timer reset or not.

[dabamda]

I think the best solution would be that this card cannot be used on times cards.

If you want, you can have to upgraded version of this card also cost 1 quanta.

While this card is similar to both precog and RT is some ways, all these 3 cards are different:

Reverse time: Costs one card to play and 2 or 1 quanta, resets a creature, gives quanta control, and gives draw disadvantage (slightly OP card IMHO)
Return: Costs 2 or 1 quanta, reset a creature or permanent (does not cost a card to play, no quanta control, no draw disadvantage)
Precognition: Costs 2 or 1 quanta, lets you see the hand (does not cost a card to play)

While the abilities of the cards might seem similar or even overlapping, the tactical usage is completely different.

The point is not that you can return a creature just like reverse time. You can return a creature OR you can use it for something else. For example, you can return you current weapon and replace it with something else. Or you can return a creature of you own to buy a more expensive one (think multicolor decks).

For example, I have a wyrm in play (4 air quanta) and I want to play a firefly queen. But I only have 3 air quanta and 2 time quanta (because I played a supernova). If I use the return on the wyrm then I have 7 air quanta and 0 time quanta and I can play the firefly queen (but I keep the damage that the wyrm did on previous turns instead of saving my quanta for my queen and waiting to play the wyrm).

Reverse time simply cannot do this. You make clever use of return even if you opponent doesn't have any creatures ... so it is different from reverse time in the ways it can be used.

Not to mention that return affects the hand instead of the deck. In the future, there might be more cards that affect the hand in one way or another. For example, you might return a card and then make him discard a card.

[dabamda]

Here is another example of a situation that reverse time cannot do:

Suppose you have one creature, and you enemy has 4 creatures. You cant to use pandemonium but you do not want to sacrifice your creature.
You cast return on your creature (you get quanta refund)
You cast pandemonium
And you simply summon that creature again

That is the power of time! Controlling when things happen.

Oh and if you return a mutated creature, then you can use the original cards' abilities instead of the mutated ones.

[furballdn]

I think the best solution would be that this card cannot be used on times cards.

If you want, you can have to upgraded version of this card also cost 1 quanta.

While this card is similar to both precog and RT is some ways, all these 3 cards are different:

Reverse time: Costs one card to play and 2 or 1 quanta, resets a creature, gives quanta control, and gives draw disadvantage (slightly OP card IMHO)
Return: Costs 2 or 1 quanta, reset a creature or permanent (does not cost a card to play, no quanta control, no draw disadvantage)
Precognition: Costs 2 or 1 quanta, lets you see the hand (does not cost a card to play)

While the abilities of the cards might seem similar or even overlapping, the tactical usage is completely different.

The point is not that you can return a creature just like reverse time. You can return a creature OR you can use it for something else. For example, you can return you current weapon and replace it with something else. Or you can return a creature of you own to buy a more expensive one (think multicolor decks).

For example, I have a wyrm in play (4 air quanta) and I want to play a firefly queen. But I only have 3 air quanta and 2 time quanta (because I played a supernova). If I use the return on the wyrm then I have 7 air quanta and 0 time quanta and I can play the firefly queen (but I keep the damage that the wyrm did on previous turns instead of saving my quanta for my queen and waiting to play the wyrm).

Reverse time simply cannot do this. You make clever use of return even if you opponent doesn't have any creatures ... so it is different from reverse time in the ways it can be used.

Not to mention that return affects the hand instead of the deck. In the future, there might be more cards that affect the hand in one way or another. For example, you might return a card and then make him discard a card.

You keep mentioning card disadvantage when you RT your opponent's cards. Very rarely does that actually matter, because most games end by creatures, not by decking out. Unless it's a specific deck-out deck (which often won't even have creatures), you lose nothing by RTing your opponent's cards and locking out their next draw.

From what I see then, the only reason people would use this would be in speedbows for doing damage quickly then retreating them. (Why would you have wyrm and queen in a speedbow together anyway?)

If you were after the cause your opponent to discard or anti-fractal, nightmare also fits the niche pretty well.

Okay, I'll give you that pandy example, but you also lose two in the process, as well as missing out on one turn's worth of damage.

[dabamda]

In the pandemonium example, you can return the creature to your hand, cast pandemonium, and replay that creature all on the same turn.
So you do not miss out on any damage.

It costs 2 but you gain 1 card advantage (because your creature did not die).

Suppose someone antimatters your dragon:
* Reverse time: Cast one your own creature: -1 card (reverse time), -1 draw (your reversed creature) = -2 card advantage + quantum cost of the creature + 1 cost
* Return: Cast on your own creature: No card disadvantage, no quantum cost for the creature (you get a refund when using return), 1 cost


Imagine another situation: You and your opponent both have pulverizer. Whoever plays this weapon first can destroy the other weapon (assume no steal or other PC).
If he/she plays first, then you can no longer play pulverizer. Unless you use return on that pulverizer and then play yours. Now your opponent has to decide whether or not to play his/her weapon (knowing that you can destroy it on your turn while she/he has to wait before using it).