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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: US Political debate thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19755.msg264864#msg264864
« Reply #48 on: February 05, 2011, 06:32:49 pm »
My response to this question is meta. Given the vast inequalities in income and especially wealth in this country, is this even the right question to be asking? If there is economic growth, but it only affects the top 1% of the population, how valuable is that economic growth? Compare the average income of the bottom 80% of the population (split into 2 lines, middle 60% and bottom 20%) with the average income of the top 1%:

Source: http://lanekenworthy.net/2010/07/20/the-best-inequality-graph-updated/ (http://lanekenworthy.net/2010/07/20/the-best-inequality-graph-updated/)

For another interesting graph and some good analysis, see http://www.lcurve.org/ (http://www.lcurve.org/)
Quote from: lcurve.org
Our economy produces tremendous wealth but it also produces tremendous poverty.  Sure, some people can be lazy, but when large numbers of hard working people live in poverty and the middle class is shrinking, it is a systemic, not an individual problem.  There is plenty to go around, but it doesn't adequately go around.  It goes to the top, and leaves the masses to fight over the crumbs.  (If you are mathematically inclined, check out a recent study of the income distribution (http://www2.physics.umd.edu/%7Eyakovenk/papers/EPL-69-304-2005.pdf) that identifies two distinct income classes in the US with different mathematical behavior.) True, it has been this way through the ages, but that doesn't mean we should be satisfied with such a system.  I believe we can do better.
Quote from: lcurve.org
The L-Curve graph represents income, not wealth. The distribution of wealth is even more skewed. (http://www.lcurve.org/WealthDistribution-1998.htm)  Quoting from a recently-published book by political philosopher David Schweickart, (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0742513009/103-5037110-1121455)

If we divided the income of the US into thirds, we find that the top ten percent of the population gets a third, the next thirty percent gets another third, and the bottom sixty percent get the last third. If we divide the wealth of the US into thirds, we find that the top one percent own a third, the next nine percent own another third, and the bottom ninety percent claim the rest. (Actually, these percentages, true a decade ago, are now out of date. The top one percent are now estimated to own between forty and fifty percent of the nation's wealth, more than the combined wealth of the bottom 95%.)
(emphasis mine)

Given the unbelievable extent of the wealth of the richest people, what is wrong with raising their taxes a little? And what is so wrong with trying to help ordinary people share in some of that wealth, especially the poorest of the poor who are barely making it?

Offline Essence

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Re: US Political debate thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19755.msg264897#msg264897
« Reply #49 on: February 05, 2011, 07:18:07 pm »
Neopergoss raises a great point, but I maintain that the unemployment rate is the one overriding element of the entire US society today.  The income gap is an issue big enough to deserve its own message board, but the question at hand is how to stimulate the economy and thus reduce unemployment (which would, by itself, go a ways toward restoring the income gap). 


So, time to disprove the conservative theory about tax cuts boosting the economy.  This is a little bit complex.

Tax cuts really do boost the economy -- in the short term.  However, in the medium and long terms, they do more damage to the economy than they do harm.  The classic conservative argument for tax cuts is that they act to "starve the beast" -- in other words, they force government to cut spending.  As Ronald Reagan put it,
Quote
Well, if you’ve got a kid that’s extravagant, you can lecture him all you want to about his extravagance. Or you can cut his allowance and achieve the same end much quicker.
The problem is that, according to Two of the nation's leading economists (http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~dromer/papers/draft509.pdf) -- the only ones to have really studied the issue -- "starve the beast" doesn't work. Inevitably, what happens is that taxes get cut, and then no one has the balls to actually cut any programs 'for realz', and so in order to pay for everything it wants to do, the government uses deficit spending to make up the difference.

You can tell that this happens simply by looking at the effect that conservative economics have on the national debt via this cute little chart from Wikipedia:



The effect is very literally that wealthy people get wealthier because the government borrows money from the future's middle class  people rather than getting it from the wealthy in the first place.  And yes, some small portion of that additional wealth does indeed get spent on investments into business, which creates jobs.  And yes, smaller taxes do in fact reduce the transction-eliminating effect that I mentioned in my last post. 

BUT -- when you take money away from middle class people, and I know this sounds obvious, but when you take money away from middle class people, they have less money.  And every economist in America will tell you that it's the middle class' spending that drives the American economy. 

So, the chain of cause and effect goes like this:

Tax cuts trigger deficit spending which takes money away from the middle class which then has no money to spend which tanks the economy which causes conservatives to scream for more tax cuts which trigger deficit spending which takes money away from the middle class.......and the only people who benefit from this in any way are the wealthy, who pocket the extra money from the tax cuts and don't even notice the recession because hey, they already have everything they need.

In short, spending money on the wealthy (via tax cuts) has a multiplier effect, much like spending money on the poor does -- only when you give it to the wealthy, the multiplier effect is less than one, because wealthy people typically don't spend all of every dollar they're given.  They save it; that's usually how they got wealthy in the first place.  Money that goes into savings, foreign markets, or long-term bonds doesn't affect the economy today.  So, while you get $1.60 in economic growth for every dollar you give a poor person, you'd be lucky to see $.80 in economic growth from every dollar you give a rich person.

Add to that the inherent economic slowdown caused by deficit spending -- which both parties are using to fund their respective 'solutions' -- and you start to get a hold of the long-term picture.  It's kind of like a rocket trying to escape gravity -- if you're not going fast enough, eventually, gravity will win and you'll crash, hard.  Growth via unemployment benefits is at least twice as "fast" as growth via tax cuts...and gravity is a motherf***er. 
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Re: US Political debate thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19755.msg265943#msg265943
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2011, 10:22:46 pm »
The topic is filibusters.

The 3rd topic will be Cyber security!

I'm leaving the timing poll up until friday of next week.

Nominations for topics for the fourth week should be PM'd to me in the next 48 hours

Good first week of debates.

Updated OP

Offline doublecross

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Re: US Political debate thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19755.msg265948#msg265948
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2011, 10:26:20 pm »
You know a debate is successful when the moderators see no real need to comment.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be. Speak the truth even when your voice falters.

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Re: US Political debate thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19755.msg266142#msg266142
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2011, 02:51:14 am »
Good job everyone. Some great points have been brought up, but personally, I think that the Democrats won this round. You guys sure had a lot of info.

Let's see how things go with the next topic.

gavsword

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Re: US Political debate thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19755.msg267696#msg267696
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2011, 05:36:22 pm »
Updated OP, added week 4 topic poll.

Still no posts for this week...

Offline Essence

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Re: US Political debate thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19755.msg267704#msg267704
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2011, 06:00:22 pm »
I don't know what there is to say about filibusters.  The Rules of Senate suck, really, and the only reason they don't get changed is that neither party is willing to step to the plate and try to modernize and strip the inefficiencies out of them.

More importantly, is there actually any significant difference about how conservatives vs. liberals view filibusters?  Because they both certainly use them quite regularly when they're feeling like their back is against the ropes.
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: US Political debate thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19755.msg267947#msg267947
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2011, 12:27:36 am »
The filibuster is a problem, sure. It makes the system less efficient and gives small minorities undue influence. But again, I don't think this is the best subject of focus, because there are much greater problems. Gerrymandering and the two-party system are much more worse, for example. More generally, the filibuster isn't much of an issue because many of the most important issues facing this country have strong bipartisan support.

Examples:
Both the Democratic and Republican establishments support the Patriot Act. Only a few outsiders like Russ Feingold and Ron Paul oppose it. Obama recently in his state of the union talked about doing away with corporate taxes and regulations without even mentioning unemployment. This, after writing in his book, The Audacity of Hope "Over the past decade, we've seen strong economic growth but anemic job growth; big leaps in productivity but flat-lining wages; hefty corporate profits, but a shrinking share of these profits going to workers."
But that's getting a little off-topic, I suppose. Speaking of off-topic, I'm about to make a new topic about a foreign policy issue, since I just read something really compelling and we haven't voted to talk about that yet.[/ot]

Essence's question about how the different parties view filibusters got me thinking about which party uses them more. Pressed for time, this was the most I could find:


But of course, clotures don't directly correspond to filibusters. Maybe someone else can find better data?

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Re: US Political debate thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19755.msg267950#msg267950
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2011, 12:34:52 am »
Or maybe we could have a discussion on current events every other weeks? What do you guys think?

Offline Neopergoss

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Re: US Political debate thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19755.msg268134#msg268134
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2011, 02:30:24 pm »
I like the idea.  :D

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Re: US Political debate thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19755.msg268492#msg268492
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2011, 12:54:38 am »
Same here, especially with the whole crisis in Egypt going on now. We'll surely be able to fit that in.

Hey, that would make a great topic, wouldn't it?

Offline Neopergoss

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Re: US Political debate thread https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=19755.msg268770#msg268770
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2011, 02:14:41 pm »
I already posted a thread about Omar Suleiman if anyone would care to comment there.

 

blarg: