Things fall apart when people stop expecting them to work

[EvaRia]

So, I've been thinking a lot, and I've discovered that a lot of things only work because the majority of the population expects it to work.

Take school for example. If over half the people in the world stopped caring whether their kids went to school or not, if over half the kids just decided to leave, the entire system falls apart. Barely anybody would go to school, and barely anybody would care.

Even things like math are a good example. If over half the people in the world suddenly believed that 1+1=3, math would fall apart. It just wouldn't work anymore.

Grammar as well. People only use proper grammar because everyone expects everyone else to use proper grammar. If nobody cared anymore, than grammar would stop mattering at all and it would make our lives that much easier.

Can you think of anything else that works like this, and why do you think we're not doing anything about it?

The standardized testing system at school is really horrible, and it is honestly so easy just to make it stop working.

[Kamietsu]

How about life? it works the exact same way. It's why we have a self-preservation instinct. If everyone, or anyone, stopped cring about living, we'd all just die. We'd just sit there, lay there, doing nothing until we draw our last breath. The movie Serenity shows a good example, though slightly different, near the end of the movie.

Though, it's how we are raised, and how we will most likely raise our children, and they their children, so on and so forth. Rules, confines, laws, theories, all meshed together into a common idea that is generally accepted by society as a whole. Paradigm shifts don't happen all to often, so I wouldn't except anything like such to happen anytime soon. But we do move about doing what we can in a more controlled way. Protesting, boycotting, people coming and raising together as one to overturn something we don't want. It happens all the time through voting. The popular opinion wins out.

Also: This should be more in the political section than religion.

[QuantumT]

So, I've been thinking a lot, and I've discovered that a lot of things only work because the majority of the population expects it to work.

Take school for example. If over half the people in the world stopped caring whether their kids went to school or not, if over half the kids just decided to leave, the entire system falls apart. Barely anybody would go to school, and barely anybody would care.

I for one would care if no one went to school. I'd no longer have people to design my car, my house, the machinery the farm uses, etc. Heck, I wouldn't even have a computer to type this comment on if people didn't go to school.

Even things like math are a good example. If over half the people in the world suddenly believed that 1+1=3, math would fall apart. It just wouldn't work anymore.

It would still work fine for the other half. Math isn't driven by popular opinion.

Grammar as well. People only use proper grammar because everyone expects everyone else to use proper grammar. If nobody cared anymore, than grammar would stop mattering at all and it would make our lives that much easier.

Have you ever seen some of the comments on the internet? For example, some youtube comments have such terrible grammar they're virtually incomprehensible.

Can you think of anything else that works like this, and why do you think we're not doing anything about it?

Even if we accept things work this way, I think the benefits of things like school, math, and grammar are apparent. Why would we want to do something to make them not work anymore?

The standardized testing system at school is really horrible, and it is honestly so easy just to make it stop working.

This just seems to be sort of tacked on to the end. While I admit that standardized testing isn't perfect, do you have a better alternative to propose?

[EvaRia]

Just because people wouldn't go to school doesn't automatically mean they are uneducated.
It means they have the option to choose what they want to learn themselves.
The curriculum is so standardized that over half the people in school don't care what they learn anymore, and most people forget what they learned last year anyways.
More importantly, the act of teaching us what they think we should know for the larger part of our lives decreases our independence and demotes learning ourselves. By teaching us things, we end up blindly following the curriculum instead of learning the things we really want to learn, and we end up forgetting how to learn things without someone teaching us.
The main argument for going to school as of the present day is that you need to get good grades in order to get a good job.
This is a very flawed argument, because the entire system is inter-dependent. If they completely changed the school system so that we learn what we want our own way, then the job requirements would change from grades to other things, being more focused on skills, abilities, and experience rather then your achievement at tests. If nobody went to school, it would be practically easier to get a job and head to work.

Math I just picked as a random example because I thought it was amusing. If over half the world believes that 1+1=3, and nothing will ever change their beliefs, and they invent an entire new way of approaching the logic of math, then the people who believe 1+1=2 will be wrong in that society.

Grammar hasn't been around forever. Punctuation, grammar, spelling, all of that was disregarded until someone basically invented them. People could still understand each other back then, because not having these things was perfectly normal. Grammar then continued to evolve throughout history and became what it is now, and then the schools and education system locked into place without letting it evolve further, Who really care where the apostrophe goes, whether to use who or whom? The only reason why we expect people to use correct grammar is because everyone else does.
If nobody used correct grammar, then we would have learned a long time ago to comprehend the people that don't, rather than bash them and tell them to use it.

Also, I'm largely drawing hypothetical situations, and I know that our opinions may be different. I accept this, and I am merely offering my point of view. You may disagree with me, but this is what I believe, and I'm not going to change my views.

[QuantumT]

Just because people wouldn't go to school doesn't automatically mean they are uneducated.
It means they have the option to choose what they want to learn themselves.
The curriculum is so standardized that over half the people in school don't care what they learn anymore, and most people forget what they learned last year anyways.
More importantly, the act of teaching us what they think we should know for the larger part of our lives decreases our independence and demotes learning ourselves. By teaching us things, we end up blindly following the curriculum instead of learning the things we really want to learn, and we end up forgetting how to learn things without someone teaching us.
The main argument for going to school as of the present day is that you need to get good grades in order to get a good job.
This is a very flawed argument, because the entire system is inter-dependent. If they completely changed the school system so that we learn what we want our own way, then the job requirements would change from grades to other things, being more focused on skills, abilities, and experience rather then your achievement at tests. If nobody went to school, it would be practically easier to get a job and head to work.

How many kids do you know that would honestly choose to learn as opposed to screw around all day if you gave them the choice? I know that they exist, but they're in the vast majority.

What your system would basically become is apprenticeship. We did that at one point, and decided that school was superior.

Math I just picked as a random example because I thought it was amusing. If over half the world believes that 1+1=3, and nothing will ever change their beliefs, and they invent an entire new way of approaching the logic of math, then the people who believe 1+1=2 will be wrong in that society.

Except for the fact that the people who think 1+1=2 could still do exactly the same things with math that they do now. They could still build bridges, cars, etc., regardless of what the other half of the world decided 1+1 equaled.

Grammar hasn't been around forever. Punctuation, grammar, spelling, all of that was disregarded until someone basically invented them. People could still understand each other back then, because not having these things was perfectly normal. Grammar then continued to evolve throughout history and became what it is now, and then the schools and education system locked into place without letting it evolve further, Who really care where the apostrophe goes, whether to use who or whom? The only reason why we expect people to use correct grammar is because everyone else does.
If nobody used correct grammar, then we would have learned a long time ago to comprehend the people that don't, rather than bash them and tell them to use it.

Your argument is equivalent to saying that since 5 year olds can talk, they never need to learn new words.

Basically we'd still be able to communicate on some level sure. But we'd be making the communications of advanced ideas even harder than it already is. I shudder to think how hard reading physics journals would be if I had to add in having to comprehend everyone's grammarless nonsense.

You might argue that they'd figure out a system to make it work eventually, and I agree. That system is called grammar.

Also, I'm largely drawing hypothetical situations, and I know that our opinions may be different. I accept this, and I am merely offering my point of view. You may disagree with me, but this is what I believe, and I'm not going to change my views.

I figured if you bothered to post them, you wanted to have some sort of discussion.

[EvaRia]

For the most part, I wanted to share, but hey, I'm up for a discussion.

The current education system is WAY outdated. It was devised ~200 years ago. We decided that school was better back then, we can decide it isn't now.

When you give kids the choice, sure they may screw around all the time, but they will be ultimately learning from it.
No matter what you do, you are learning something, and if you are given the choice, you will learn from it.
And since it's something that you WANT to learn, something you WANT to do, you get that much more from it.
Plus, it promotes independence and lets you build up curiosity and promote lifelong learning, while going to school destroys this desire to learn by trying to jam information into kids' minds without them having any say in it.

The system for effective and organized communication is not grammar. It is language. You don't need strict rules involving language for it to work well. As long as the basic building blocks are there, then the language will function, and it will evolve.
I'm not saying there should be no grammar, grammar is a good thing and is there to help us, but it should at least be let free to evolve and change. It's too strict right now.

[QuantumT]

For the most part, I wanted to share, but hey, I'm up for a discussion.

Fair enough. Let's have at it!

{quote]The current education system is WAY outdated. It was devised ~200 years ago. We decided that school was better back then, we can decide it isn't now.[/quote]
I'll grant that the execution isn't perfect, and it could be improved.

When you give kids the choice, sure they may screw around all the time, but they will be ultimately learning from it.
No matter what you do, you are learning something, and if you are given the choice, you will learn from it.
And since it's something that you WANT to learn, something you WANT to do, you get that much more from it.

Not all things you can learn are of equal value though. Sure I'll learn something if I play Halo 8 hours a day, but knowing how to headshot and teabag somebody is significantly less important than knowing how to read or add.

Plus, it promotes independence and lets you build up curiosity and promote lifelong learning, while going to school destroys this desire to learn by trying to jam information into kids' minds without them having any say in it.

Generally the kids who actually have this curiosity won't be harmed by the school system. They're generally self-motivated when it comes to learning what they want, and will continue to do it regardless of what the school system does. They might not do well in school because they don't care, but if the curiosity is there it will still express itself regardless.

The system for effective and organized communication is not grammar. It is language. You don't need strict rules involving language for it to work well. As long as the basic building blocks are there, then the language will function, and it will evolve.
I'm not saying there should be no grammar, grammar is a good thing and is there to help us, but it should at least be let free to evolve and change. It's too strict right now.

As long as we aren't calling for grammar to be completely discarded, I can agree with what you're saying.

I don't think that it's unchanging though. Regardless of what the older generations try to do about it, grammar and language in general have changed since the advent of the internet. For example, I can say:

OMG, WTF was that?

and you'll understand what I said.

[EvaRia]

I'm under the assumption that kids will not play Halo 8 hours a day. Even if they do, then that's what they truly want to do, given the choice. But they will learn eventually that they have to do other things in order to continue to play Halo 8 hours a day. And since they were brought up outside of a standardized environment, they have the oppurtunity and more importantly the time to discover these things.

Besides, you said yourself that it's more important for YOU to learn to read or add right? If you see the importance in it, then you WILL learn it, because you have the choice

A question I mean to ask is "What do you want to do?" I see going to work and making money as a means to achieve an end. Work should not be your final destination. You should work do achieve the financial stability in order to achieve something, to do something. If what you want to do with your life is game, then so be it. You can do what needs to be done to achieve this goal, and you can be happy with your life. Is there anything you see wrong with that?

I don't see school as being a necessary part of this system to achieve your goals in life. It is an imposed, self-reliant system that can be completely changed for the better, or even removed entirely. Face it, 12+ years of your life completely devoted to school is a lot of time that doesn't need to be wasted on millions of people if we create a more open learning environment.

For grammar, I'm glad you understand what I'm trying to say, but what people are trying to do now to grammar IS to make it unchanging. It's a pretty recent thing as far as I can tell. Right now, in school, they teach you grammar, and they say "These are the rules, you must follow them exactly, because that is the way we do things.", instead of "These are the rules. They may change, and we're the ones who are responsible for that change."

The standardization in the way we are trying to teach kids is limiting possibilities for the future. If we relax our grip on grammar enough to realize that grammar is prone to change, then that will be a lot easier on many, many people.
And face it, it's the masses that ultimately decide how grammar works, why not just let them?

[QuantumT]

I'm under the assumption that kids will not play Halo 8 hours a day. Even if they do, then that's what they truly want to do, given the choice. But they will learn eventually that they have to do other things in order to continue to play Halo 8 hours a day. And since they were brought up outside of a standardized environment, they have the oppurtunity and more importantly the time to discover these things.

But when will they learn that they can't just play Halo 8 hours a day? As long as someone keeps supporting them playing Halo 8 hours a day, then why would they ever stop? If you just force them to do it at some point, it seems likely that they wouldn't even be able to cope with the transition at all.

Also, who decides what the child does? Is it the parents or the child?

Besides, you said yourself that it's more important for YOU to learn to read or add right? If you see the importance in it, then you WILL learn it, because you have the choice

But who will teach me if we don't have school? I suppose that my parents could do it, but then they'd have to take time away from working.

Also, this is really only tangentially related, but what do kids do during the day if not school? Schools kind of double as daycare centers, especially for younger children.

A question I mean to ask is "What do you want to do?" I see going to work and making money as a means to achieve an end. Work should not be your final destination. You should work do achieve the financial stability in order to achieve something, to do something. If what you want to do with your life is game, then so be it. You can do what needs to be done to achieve this goal, and you can be happy with your life. Is there anything you see wrong with that?

I suppose I'm probably the exception here, but my goal since high school has been getting a job that I want. I've been distinctly working so that I have a job such that work is something I want to be doing, instead of just a means to do something else.

I guess that can't really apply to everybody, because eventually I still need janitors and garbagemen.

I don't see school as being a necessary part of this system to achieve your goals in life. It is an imposed, self-reliant system that can be completely changed for the better, or even removed entirely. Face it, 12+ years of your life completely devoted to school is a lot of time that doesn't need to be wasted on millions of people if we create a more open learning environment.

I guess part of the reason I might be against it is because I don't know exactly what you're proposing to take it's place. What would you set up instead?

For grammar, I'm glad you understand what I'm trying to say, but what people are trying to do now to grammar IS to make it unchanging. It's a pretty recent thing as far as I can tell. Right now, in school, they teach you grammar, and they say "These are the rules, you must follow them exactly, because that is the way we do things.", instead of "These are the rules. They may change, and we're the ones who are responsible for that change."

The standardization in the way we are trying to teach kids is limiting possibilities for the future. If we relax our grip on grammar enough to realize that grammar is prone to change, then that will be a lot easier on many, many people.
And face it, it's the masses that ultimately decide how grammar works, why not just let them?

I guess it's partially because absolutes are easier to understand than relatives. But I think having a system setup that way ensures that everyone's grammar is more or less the same, which improves communication.

[EvaRia]

It is ultimately the decision of the child to decide what the child wants to do. They merely decide to follow the path that their parents set out for them, because that is the way that they've always lived, and that is the way that they were taught. Halo will get boring after a while. If you give them the choice, then they will move on eventually. How many people do you know actually want to spend their lives playing Halo 8 hours a day anyways? I believe that kids play video games either to do something with their friends, or to take a break from life and school. If there's no school to take a break from, then they will choose voluntarily to do something else.

If there's no school, then you will teach yourself. You seem to underestimate your learning capabilities. Who taught you how to speak? Who taught you how to walk? Sure your parents may have helped you, but at that stage in time, it's basically you figuring it out yourself. If you spend your entire life learning to figure things out yourself, rather than having people teach you, then you will get much more out of your learning, because you are learning the things that you teach yourself, that you really want to learn. Especially with the rise of technology recently, information is so easy to reach.

For what I would set up instead, well, there's an idea I've. Basically, I would set up an entirely open school system. Kids will choose what they want to learn, whether they want to go to school or not, and teachers will teach what they want to teach instead of following a set curriculum. School would basically a building where teachers would set up courses for students to sign up for, and they will follow the course for a little while before moving on to something else. There would be no standardized testing or records of how well you did in particular, it will be a place entirely devoted to student's learning.

As for grammar, while I do agree that people's grammar should be the same, I don't see the need in calling everything people say that doesn't follow the current system directly bad grammar. There are many trends in bad grammar that you see spoken by a lot of people anyways, and it's still considered incorrect. A good example is the term "Who are you talking about?". The grammar here is technically incorrect, but it's used so widely that it's more or less good grammar now. But teachers STILL call it incorrect grammar, and they STILL encourage people to use the correct version "About whom are you talking?" Which is so obscure now that you mind as well call it bad grammar.

English is also a language of thousands of exceptions that follows no clear cut rules from the start. What's the plural of Octopus? Octopi? Octopuses? Nobody really keeps track of these things, and we just use one or the other and it still makes sense. Instead of teaching the exact rules for every single word, why not just teach some basic trends and let the rest fall into place? People will still understand you whether you use "mice" or "mouses".

[QuantumT]

It is ultimately the decision of the child to decide what the child wants to do. They merely decide to follow the path that their parents set out for them, because that is the way that they've always lived, and that is the way that they were taught.

I don't think a child is informed enough to be capable of making that decision. Just like how we make a child eat vegetables instead of letting them eat candy, a child just isn't developed enough to be able to think ahead.

Halo will get boring after a while. If you give them the choice, then they will move on eventually. How many people do you know actually want to spend their lives playing Halo 8 hours a day anyways? I believe that kids play video games either to do something with their friends, or to take a break from life and school. If there's no school to take a break from, then they will choose voluntarily to do something else.

They'll probably move on eventually, but it might just be to Call of Duty instead, which really doesn't help any.

As for them choosing to learn themselves, I just don't think it would happen generally. I knew people in high school whose parents didn't make them go to school and just let them do what they wanted, and they aren't doing very well at this point.

If there's no school, then you will teach yourself. You seem to underestimate your learning capabilities. Who taught you how to speak? Who taught you how to walk? Sure your parents may have helped you, but at that stage in time, it's basically you figuring it out yourself. If you spend your entire life learning to figure things out yourself, rather than having people teach you, then you will get much more out of your learning, because you are learning the things that you teach yourself, that you really want to learn. Especially with the rise of technology recently, information is so easy to reach.

Those aren't really good examples, as both walking and talking are things that humans are genetically predisposed to learn. Multiplication and reading? Not so much.

For what I would set up instead, well, there's an idea I've. Basically, I would set up an entirely open school system. Kids will choose what they want to learn, whether they want to go to school or not, and teachers will teach what they want to teach instead of following a set curriculum. School would basically a building where teachers would set up courses for students to sign up for, and they will follow the course for a little while before moving on to something else. There would be no standardized testing or records of how well you did in particular, it will be a place entirely devoted to student's learning.

There need to be standards set at some point. Maybe it's not important at lower levels, but eventually I want to be certain that my doctor knows what an antibody is and the civil engineer who built the skyscraper I'm in knew how to calculate stresses.

I think we more or less agree on grammar. I just favor a slightly more rigid structure than you do.

[TimerClock14]

money works this way....