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Offline mesaprotector

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Re: Shame on the Rich https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37105.msg466066#msg466066
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2012, 11:31:41 pm »
Wait... there aren't any rich democrats????
Politicians in general tend towards the wealthy side :P I can believe that rich people are more dishonest... I don't think it's fair to blame just the Republicans though. Both sides have engaged in their share of crony capitalism. Both sides, as well, probably have some honest members who actually believe in what they're doing ;)

Oh, and for the record: I'm economically conservative, and I still don't believe that cheating and lying is morally acceptable.
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Re: Shame on the Rich https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37105.msg466070#msg466070
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2012, 11:48:20 pm »
Man makes 1,000,000 dollars on a lemonade stand. Occasionally lies and cheats to make more money.
Donates 160,000 of it to charity.


Man makes 750,000 in the government. Lies and cheats to keep his seat in office.
Donates 750 of it to charity, and then to everyones knowledge, steals 1,000,000 dollars from other people, and gives that to charity

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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Shame on the Rich https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37105.msg466095#msg466095
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2012, 12:46:30 am »
Let’s take a look at some prominent Democrats right now and compare them to Mitt Romney the “Big Bad Republican businessman” shall we?
Romney gave more than 16% of his total income to charity last year (and the year before that…), and when coupled with the amount he paid in taxes that year, 3.2 million, it was roughly 42% of his total income.
Straw man. Romney is Mormon.  Tithing + Fast Offerings account for the vast majority of his 'charitable donations', and they're required by law in his church.  Anything he gave past that, i'll be happy to grant you -- and not particularly care, because Romney is worth several times with Obama is worth. He has vastly more disposable income, so he SHOULD give vastly more in charity.


Quote
All in all, while democrats tend to be more generous with money it tends to be the tax payers money, yours and mine, and not their own.
Yep.  And you know what? I have no problem with that, because I'd rather have everyone contributing to the future good of my country than having a few people contributing to charities that don't do things like run public schools, maintain our infrastructure, or put out fires.

1) People have the right to disagree about what is and is not valuable.
2) You cannot have a right to disagree without the right to act upon that disagreement.
3) Are you willing to violate the right to disagree that someone has merely because they disagreed with you about the value of private vs public schools?
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Offline SnoWeb

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Re: Shame on the Rich https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37105.msg466219#msg466219
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2012, 11:37:05 am »

Offline Belthus

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Re: Shame on the Rich https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37105.msg489586#msg489586
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2012, 04:17:46 pm »
As soon as money changes hands, ownership changes. When I give money to Fred, it's then Fred's money, not my money. When taxpayers pay taxes, it's no longer taxpayers' money. It's the government's money.

I should also point out that money originates with the government. Bills are printed by the government. Coins are minted by the government. I would like to see someone print their own bills and mint their own coins  (with their own faces on them) and then try to buy things with "their" money. Instead of leeching off a system that the government has created, be a real man or a real woman and create your own money. See how much people value what you (and only you) have to offer — not much, I bet. Or better yet, build a boat and live in international waters, far away from civilized people.

Of course, the government should be the servant of its people. It should spend money on public purposes that benefit the country, not enrich private citizens and for-profit corporations. It should not be run by corporate puppets. Elections should not be bought and sold. Those who finance the corruption are just as much to blame as those who are financed.

Offline YoungSot

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Re: Shame on the Rich https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37105.msg489639#msg489639
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2012, 05:41:09 pm »
As soon as money changes hands, ownership changes. When I give money to Fred, it's then Fred's money, not my money. When taxpayers pay taxes, it's no longer taxpayers' money. It's the government's money.

We refer to it as the taxpayer's money because we are the ones who give the government permission to take it in the first place, with the assumption that it will be used correctly to protect us.

I should also point out that money originates with the government. Bills are printed by the government. Coins are minted by the government. I would like to see someone print their own bills and mint their own coins  (with their own faces on them) and then try to buy things with "their" money. Instead of leeching off a system that the government has created, be a real man or a real woman and create your own money. See how much people value what you (and only you) have to offer — not much, I bet. Or better yet, build a boat and live in international waters, far away from civilized people.

Money does not originate from the government. Money is merely an idea of value. People create their own forms all the time, from casinos giving out chips to the various notes that are traded in real estate or finance. The form use by the U.S. government currently is called "fiat money" because it only has value due to the government saying it does. Changing from the gold standard to fiat money gave our government the ability to create money without any actual value behind it, which contributed to explosive economic growth but also to our current unstable financial structure. I personally am of the opinion that we would benefit long term by moving to a less fragile system (such as currency backed by something of value), or even having the government get out of the money printing business altogether. All that to say, your point is not valid. While the government does provide a service by creating currency, it's a service that could be (and to a degree, already is) provided by the private sector and individuals, and we have every right to complain or disagree if the government is managing it poorly.

Of course, the government should be the servant of its people. It should spend money on public purposes that benefit the country, not enrich private citizens and for-profit corporations. It should not be run by corporate puppets. Elections should not be bought and sold. Those who finance the corruption are just as much to blame as those who are financed.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 05:42:51 pm by YoungSot »

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Shame on the Rich https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37105.msg489778#msg489778
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2012, 11:33:36 pm »
As soon as money changes hands, ownership changes. When I give money to Fred, it's then Fred's money, not my money. When taxpayers pay taxes, it's no longer taxpayers' money. It's the government's money.

I should also point out that money originates with the government. Bills are printed by the government. Coins are minted by the government. I would like to see someone print their own bills and mint their own coins  (with their own faces on them) and then try to buy things with "their" money. Instead of leeching off a system that the government has created, be a real man or a real woman and create your own money. See how much people value what you (and only you) have to offer — not much, I bet. Or better yet, build a boat and live in international waters, far away from civilized people.

Of course, the government should be the servant of its people. It should spend money on public purposes that benefit the country, not enrich private citizens and for-profit corporations. It should not be run by corporate puppets. Elections should not be bought and sold. Those who finance the corruption are just as much to blame as those who are financed.
As soon as wealth changes hands through just means of acquisition, just ownership changes.
When I give to charity, the charity justly owns my gift.
When I trade for an apple, I justly own the apple.
When a robber steals from a victim, the robber does not justly own the booty.


The US government has legislated a monopoly on the right to create currency. Gold coins would be legal tender if not for these laws. Most people do not have the option to live in international waters. However currency is not the source of wealth. Wealth is the product of voluntary mutually beneficial trade resulting from subjective value.
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Offline Belthus

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Re: Shame on the Rich https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37105.msg490756#msg490756
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2012, 07:18:25 pm »
As soon as wealth changes hands through just means of acquisition, just ownership changes.
When I give to charity, the charity justly owns my gift.
When I trade for an apple, I justly own the apple.
When a robber steals from a victim, the robber does not justly own the booty.
You have not shown that "taxation is theft," as many who share your politics like to say. If you hold that taxation can be theft, depending on the nature of the government, then I would agree. If you hold that taxation is always and everywhere theft, by definition, then I disagree. On the issue of consent (widely believed to separate just from unjust governments), it is certainly important in the aggregate, but any government must deal with individuals who do not consent, like the Hutaree and "sovereign citizens."


Quote
The US government has legislated a monopoly on the right to create currency. Gold coins would be legal tender if not for these laws.
The US government has a monopoly on coin minting. It does not have a monopoly on bill printing. In Ithaca, New York, a currency called Ithaca Hours is in circulation. In Berkshire, Massachusetts, many stores accept BerkShares. As long as you aren't minting coins, you are legally entitled to print your own money. You may even promise to give gold in exchange for your money.

Why do you want gold coins to be legal tender? You want to be able use a Gold Eagle to buy one dollar worth of goods at Wal-mart? Legal tender refers to the face value, not the metal value. Wouldn't you rather sell your Gold Eagle at market value (~$1700 at time of writing) and get a lot more than $1? You can do that right now. You are also free to buy and sell gold in other forms, at market prices. Are you against markets? [Edit: I don't know much about American Gold Eagle coins. From a quick look around the Internet, I gather that they come in various denominations. I have seen $5, $10, and $50 coins for sale. In any case, the sale price is always much higher than the face value, which is why these coins would never be used as circulating currency.]

Any country would be foolish to circulate gold coins. Monetary systems that were based on the metal content of the coin (as opposed to the face value) have always been undermined by hoarding and by widespread fraud such as coin clipping, despite harsh legal penalties. A major benefit of money is facilitating transactions, and having to verify the weight and purity of every coin is the opposite of facilitation. The history of money weighs decidedly in favor of nominalism and against metalism. The results would be catastrophic if you required every transaction — most of which are electronic these days — to involve a physical exchange of metal coins.

Quote
Most people do not have the option to live in international waters.
Are you saying that governments forbid living in international waters? Do you base your position on positive liberty instead of negative liberty?

Quote
However currency is not the source of wealth. Wealth is the product of voluntary mutually beneficial trade resulting from subjective value.
The first statement is true. As for the second one, I don't see why you put trade as the defining element. If I am the only human in the world, and I gather edible berries, then I have wealth in the form of berries. Wealth is the product of labor, capital, and natural resources, and it may or may not be traded.

Anyway, the statement that prompted my post is that "it's the taxpayer's money," not "it's the taxpayer's wealth." So changing the subject from money to wealth is hand waving.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 08:39:42 pm by Belthus »

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Shame on the Rich https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37105.msg490863#msg490863
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2012, 10:35:19 pm »
As soon as wealth changes hands through just means of acquisition, just ownership changes.
When I give to charity, the charity justly owns my gift.
When I trade for an apple, I justly own the apple.
When a robber steals from a victim, the robber does not justly own the booty.
You have not shown that "taxation is theft," as many who share your politics like to say. If you hold that taxation can be theft, depending on the nature of the government, then I would agree. If you hold that taxation is always and everywhere theft, by definition, then I disagree. On the issue of consent (widely believed to separate just from unjust governments), it is certainly important in the aggregate, but any government must deal with individuals who do not consent, like the Hutaree and "sovereign citizens."

Quote
Most people do not have the option to live in international waters.
Are you saying that governments forbid living in international waters? Do you base your position on positive liberty instead of negative liberty?

Quote
However currency is not the source of wealth. Wealth is the product of voluntary mutually beneficial trade resulting from subjective value.
The first statement is true. As for the second one, I don't see why you put trade as the defining element. If I am the only human in the world, and I gather edible berries, then I have wealth in the form of berries. Wealth is the product of labor, capital, and natural resources, and it may or may not be traded.

Anyway, the statement that prompted my post is that "it's the taxpayer's money," not "it's the taxpayer's wealth." So changing the subject from money to wealth is hand waving.
I think that taxation can be any of the three forms of transactions I described. It depends on the taxpayer, the tax and the use of the taxes. I do use consent as the basis for judging if a government is just when it involved giving up negative rights to the government. However I understand that even republics like the US are not able to always fulfill this criteria. "Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." (Sir Winston Churchill)

Thanks for the correction about currency.

Since I base the justice/injustice of giving up negative rights based on consent, I believe that a government that takes negative rights cannot be fully just unless it has unanimous consent or each citizen had a choice to not participate. Forcing non consenting citizens to submit is a blemish on the government. Currently only the wealthy have the option to opt out of submitting to a government. I think the lack of options for the poor makes it unjust for a government to choose to take any of their negative rights.

We agree about how wealth is created. I merely put a partial picture because I did not have a good way to state both.

I have found that many people use money or currency when the issue is about wealth. If taxes took money but not wealth then I do not think anyone would object. The justice/injustice of the acquisition by the government of the currency is dependent on the situation. This is one of the uses that "the tax payer's money" is used to symbolize. If this is hand waving then I apologize. It was unintentional.

There is another use of "the tax payer's money" that I hear. It uses "the tax payer's money" to denote where the wealth that was converted into the form of currency originated from. This is to make a separation from the wealth producing activities and the theoretically wealth neutral or wealth destroying activities. Usually I hear the term in discussions of just ownership of the type of wealth that is the currency.
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Offline BluePriest

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Re: Shame on the Rich https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37105.msg491321#msg491321
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2012, 04:00:26 pm »
In my view, the government is there for the people, not the other way around. The instant a government stops doing the will of the people, there is no use for it. So its the taxpayers money because even though the government is in control of the money, the people, in a perfect world, which we are not in, is in control of the government.
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Offline Thereallongdono

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Re: Shame on the Rich https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=37105.msg1064627#msg1064627
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2013, 01:43:31 am »
Wow where to begin. I thought this topic was a joke thread at first.
I would like to ask a question.
Is it possible that instead of being rich changing people to be cheaters , liars, and thieves that instead it is intelligent  liars, cheaters  and thieves that become rich? Or as I believe a mix of both. Sadly blaming an accumulation of wealth is arbitrary at best. What is wealth after all? Do half of the people commenting on this understand what real value and wealth are?
Blaming the accumulation of wealth for how someone acts I feel as though is dishonest toward the real issue at hand and that is the fact that almost all forms of common wealth are only valuable because people perceive it to be. This has a psychological roll to play in how people act with money if only to a small degree.

Also the democrat vs republican garbage in this thread sickened me a lot. Seriously childish.

 

anything
blarg: