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Offline EssenceTopic starter

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Scott Walker vs. The Unions: The Real Public Enemy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22550.msg285819#msg285819
« on: March 08, 2011, 12:21:47 am »
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Re: Scott Walker vs. The Unions: The Real Public Enemy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22550.msg295320#msg295320
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2011, 07:25:42 am »
The real public enemy is the sorry a... schools we have.Our schools in the U.S. blow half the stuff our kids learn is useless to them in the work force.Just one mans thought.

Offline Dragoon1140

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Re: Scott Walker vs. The Unions: The Real Public Enemy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22550.msg300539#msg300539
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2011, 04:17:59 am »
Not to be the bringer of bad news, or the darned to brings back relatively dead threads, but I have an interesting statistic everybody should look at before opinions start being made about unions.

They support Democrats (http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topcontribs.php).  Not just by a little, a lot.

The article linked in the OP clearly attack a Republican congressman for engaging the loop of unions supporting politicians that then pay the unions who then help the politicians.  Democrats, of course, support unions because of this.  This is best described from one of the comments made on the very same article that was linked in the OP:

"No, but it does show the arrogance that too many on the Left are showing on this particular subject. Using cops/teachers as the facade for the entire government union movement is an attempted smokescreen to cover the other, far less popular government workers. Then comes the attempted point of comparison between private sector paychecks for CEOs (paid for by shareholders) and TAXPAYER extracted paychecks for union workers who negotiate for increased pay/benefits with the very politicians they elect."
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Scott Walker vs. The Unions: The Real Public Enemy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22550.msg300711#msg300711
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2011, 01:23:02 pm »
They support Democrats[/b][/url].  Not just by a little, a lot.
Yes, yes, and Republicans support corporations. Although so do Democrats. Which way do you think we're headed: dangerous expansions in union power, or dangerous expansions of corporate power? Unions are one of the few checks to corporate power, which is why we're seeing them lose what remaining influence they have.

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Re: Scott Walker vs. The Unions: The Real Public Enemy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22550.msg300745#msg300745
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2011, 02:45:34 pm »
In the last election 3 out of the top 10 donors to political partys were unions. Also only the unions supported democrats in the top 10. Republicans want to get rid of unions to get rid of democrats.
Republicans can kiss my rear end. They don't want to get rid of them for any other reason than winning elections, thats just dirty, end of story.

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Re: Scott Walker vs. The Unions: The Real Public Enemy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22550.msg300813#msg300813
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2011, 05:00:45 pm »
Scott Walker and the Republican Politicians did this as a tactical move in a "political war" with their competition the Democrat Politicians. This intent is revolting.

However I have heard little concrete evidence about the law accutally being unfair in the Taxpayer-PublicWorker situation. (although I admit that it hits the union organizers and elected democrats pretty hard)

I have heard of 3 main parts of the bill:
1) Elected officials can only raise the wages of Public Workers to compensate for Inflation. When compensating for inflation is not enough the Public Workers must negotiate with their employer (the Taxpayer) for any additional increase.
This is reasonable because in the private sector it is the provider of wages that negotiates with the union. The elected official is not the source of the wages.

2) Secret ballot voting for whether a union should or not form.
Seriously secret ballots are the fairest form of voting and work to prevent coercion that Unions are not doing anyways so there should be not fuss right?

3) It reduces the red tape for Public Union workers to change which union they are a part of or even if they want to be part of a union.
Making the union organizers more dependent on the wishes of their bosses (the union workers) is a good thing that promotes unions to do what is best for the union workers.
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Re: Scott Walker vs. The Unions: The Real Public Enemy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22550.msg301856#msg301856
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2011, 11:17:06 pm »
It's not surprising that unions tend to support Democratic candidates, in the same way that it is not surprising that corporations (and other private sector employers) tend to support Republican candidates.

It's not immediately clear why this is a bad thing - constituents are represented and their money goes to candidates who support those constituents and their rights. This is how a representative democracy works. Union support is only damning if you believe that unions and collective bargaining are a bad idea for some bizarre reason (and if you do, we should probably start a new thread because I will probably end up talking about this at length).

Fundamentally the biggest problem with Walker's actions is that the measures were clearly not intended to repair the deficit (which, it's worth pointing out, he created in the first place). That the intention was to break the collective bargaining capacity of public sector employees was made clear the instant they took out all the financial elements of the bill in order to get it passed with a lower quorum.

Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Scott Walker vs. The Unions: The Real Public Enemy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22550.msg302377#msg302377
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2011, 04:44:51 pm »
Union support is only damning if you believe that unions and collective bargaining are a bad idea for some bizarre reason (and if you do, we should probably start a new thread because I will probably end up talking about this at length).
I hope you do start a new thread because this is an issue I feel that I don't understand fully and your posts are always very informative.

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Re: Scott Walker vs. The Unions: The Real Public Enemy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22550.msg304086#msg304086
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2011, 07:43:25 pm »
Fundamentally the biggest problem with Walker's actions is that the measures were clearly not intended to repair the deficit (which, it's worth pointing out, he created in the first place). That the intention was to break the collective bargaining capacity of public sector employees was made clear the instant they took out all the financial elements of the bill in order to get it passed with a lower quorum.
This is off the mark for a few reasons. First, he did not create the budget shortfall.  There has been an ongoing shortfall situation for many years in Wisconsin (and many other states) with band-aid approaches to "deal" with it.  A few examples include Wisconsin state employees have had 8 mandatory unpaid furlough days per year for the past couple of years, there has been a raid on the injured patient compensation fund (which was established as an irrevocable trust decades ago) to fill in budget shortfalls and there have been many accounting shenanigans to make a budget appear balanced but really pushed expenses into a later fiscal year. 

A number of liberal blogs and opinion shows spouted the notion that the budget shortfall was somehow Walker's doing, or that Wisconsin had some kind of magical budget surplus, but those who live there know better and these notions have been demonstrated to be false as evaluated by PolitiFact Wisconsin here:

http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/rachel-maddow/rachel-maddow-says-wisconsin-track-have-budget-sur/

Moreover, it was no secret that reducing state worker collective bargaining rights was intended.  Walker has stated it is a necessary step in treating the overall symptom of ever enlarging state (and local) expenditures in both salary and benefits.  They were intended to be included into one legal motion, but could not be included when the state Democrat senators left the state to prevent passage of the bill.   There was no clear timeline when or under what conditions the Democrats would return to work so they took out the fiscal portions of the larger package as it could pass with a simple majority.  With it passed, the Democrats had no reason to avoid work any longer and could return home to do their jobs.

I suggest reading this short column on the topic of why Walker took on the government employee unions:
http://www.wpri.org/WIInterest/Vol20No1/Schneider20.1.html

Excerpts:
"Milwaukee teachers negotiated a benefit that paid their health care premiums when they retired — in 2016, this benefit will be worth $4.9 billion, or more than four times the size of the Milwaukee district’s current budget. "



If you see the math you ought to come to the conclusion that a) there really is a budget shortfall pre-existing Scott Walker's tenure, and b) the status quo allows government employee unions to dictate to taxpayers how the finances will be spent (instead of the other way around.)
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Re: Scott Walker vs. The Unions: The Real Public Enemy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22550.msg304096#msg304096
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2011, 07:50:38 pm »
Union support is only damning if you believe that unions and collective bargaining are a bad idea for some bizarre reason (and if you do, we should probably start a new thread because I will probably end up talking about this at length).
I hope you do start a new thread because this is an issue I feel that I don't understand fully and your posts are always very informative.
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Re: Scott Walker vs. The Unions: The Real Public Enemy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22550.msg304107#msg304107
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2011, 07:58:45 pm »
Union support is only damning if you believe that unions and collective bargaining are a bad idea for some bizarre reason (and if you do, we should probably start a new thread because I will probably end up talking about this at length).
I hope you do start a new thread because this is an issue I feel that I don't understand fully and your posts are always very informative.
^^ This.
Does anyone feel fair negotiations between the suppliers of jobs and the suppliers of labor (Bosses and Private sector workers or Taxpayers and Public sector workers) is a bad idea? I doubt the value of a one sided thread.

I tracked down the bill for those interested in finding the objectionable parts. Warning the amendments make it very hard to read.
http://www.votesmart.org/billtext/33622.pdf
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Re: Scott Walker vs. The Unions: The Real Public Enemy https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=22550.msg304749#msg304749
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2011, 05:21:12 pm »
Quote
Does anyone feel fair negotiations between the suppliers of jobs and the suppliers of labor (Bosses and Private sector workers or Taxpayers and Public sector workers) is a bad idea? I doubt the value of a one sided thread.
Several people have argued that practically eliminating collective bargaining was the right thing to do, yourself included. This is what I would expect such a thread to be about.

 

anything
blarg: