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Offline Belthus

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Re: Occupy Wall Street https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34322.msg433039#msg433039
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2011, 11:46:31 pm »
Occupy started two months ago. Ask yourself how long the Civil Rights movement, or the women's suffrage movement, or anti-colonial movements lasted. Successful movements that demand a major change in how society operates usually take years, not weeks.

Offline darkrobe

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Re: Occupy Wall Street https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34322.msg433082#msg433082
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2011, 12:28:47 am »
From what I have seen, the OWS movement seems to be driven by people who cant find jobs for their skill level. AKA college educated people cant find jobs that require a college degree, so they either dont work or work unskilled jobs. Unskilled (non college educated) workers cant find jobs because there arent any and the ones that are out there are being filled by over qualified college grads. and people that didnt even graduate highschool are completely out of luck.

The main issue i feel is being expressed is the following. for a few decades it was assumed that if we let the top get richer that would mean economic growth = more good jobs. Instead the top has gotten richer and the current result is less and worse jobs.

On a related note. it was assumed that getting an education would = good job. but now we see that unless you are in very few very select fields, education = same job as no education + school debt which means worse position.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34322.msg433489#msg433489
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2011, 09:58:41 pm »
I've decided to stop arguing in this thread for this reason:
I am to far away from these circumstances. As I am one of the people who has not been unduly affected by the reccesion (I am in no means rich, merely lucky) I tend to view people who can't get a job in a negative light, even if it is unwarranted, even if I recognize it and try to stop myself, I will still sub-consciously believe it is their fault they cannot get a job. On the other hand, those who ave experienced this will subconsciously shift the entirety of the blame to scapegoats, such as big corporations and  wall street, not recognizing that at least some, if not all, of the blame lies on them, it is rare that an exemplary worker is laid off just to balance a budget. I recognize that some people truly have simply fallen under the hammer of bad luck, but I find that believe that bad luck isn't the only factor, but as I said, I am biased against said people so you should take my observations with a grain of salt.
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Offline darkrobe

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Re: Occupy Wall Street https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34322.msg433565#msg433565
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2011, 12:06:18 am »
Im going to say that in general, if you are in a thriving industry, and you get fired, probably your fault. But I cant really blame people who were working in one specific industry, lets say a manufacturing sector, and that sector dies out. You may have been an excellent worker, but you were unlucky in picking a bad industry when you started out. (something you may have picked simply because it was close to home or for some other reason)

Or for example, people who went to law school, thinking that after graduating they get a sweet job as lawyers, only to find out that the 90% hire rate for lawyers is more like 50
% and the rest ended up in fast food. (a couple of law schools seem to be facing litigation based on their manipulation of their graduate hire statistics)

I am in a good position myself, but i can see why people get angry, especially if they were doing something that they were told would lead to a good result and it landed them in a dead end job or no job at all.

Offline Belthus

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Re: Occupy Wall Street https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34322.msg433686#msg433686
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2011, 03:02:07 am »
First Major State Lawsuit Filed Over ‘Robo-Signing’ (http://www.cnbc.com/id/45511868?__source=google|editorspicks|&par=google)
Quote
After a year of fruitless negotiations between major U.S. banks and the nation's state attorneys general, Massachusetts has filed the first major lawsuit over so-called "robo-signing" foreclosure processing.

Attorney General Martha Coakley filed suit against Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase, Citi, Ally Financial and Wells Fargo, as well as the MERS corp (Mortgage Electronic Registration System, Inc.)

The Attorney General alleges these five entities, "engaged in unfair and deceptive trade practices in violation of Massachusetts' law by: Pervasive use of fraudulent documentation in the foreclosure process, including so-called "robo-signing", foreclosing without holding the actual mortgage, corrupting Massachusetts land recording system through the use of MERS, and failing to uphold loan modification promises to Massachusetts homeowners."

The suit seeks civil penalties and restitution for slleged harm to borrowers, in addition to compensation for state registration fees that were allegedly avoided. The lawsuit also seeks, "to hold the banks accountable through permanent injunctive relief to provide a solution for prior unlawful foreclosures and to require that the banks, going forward, register assignments and other documents in accordance with Massachusetts law."
This is one kind of thing that would make Occupiers and much of America a little less dissatisfed. When the world economy crashed in 2007, it wasn't an oopsie. All kinds of fraud were going on. It's interesting how a sheriff will evict someone behind on paying mortgage or rent, or riot police will pepper spray peaceful protesters sitting on the sidewalk, but these criminals who destroyed trillions in the world economy still walk around free, in some cases still running their financial companies.

Offline inthisroom

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Re: Occupy Wall Street https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34322.msg433737#msg433737
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2011, 04:40:52 am »
This movement is said to have been largely inspired by the "indignados" movement that appeared in Spain after the publishing of Stéphane Hessel's book "Indignez-vous" (Time for outrage), and that quickly spread to other European capitals (Athens, Paris, Brussels).
Hessel's book is about the personal responsibility of every citizen to oppose injustice and it criticises the influence of the financial/corporate world on today's domestic politics in most countries.

I live in Paris, and the evolution regarding the increasing poverty and unemployment of the population is very hard to bear when you consider that most companies make billions of profit, yet sack half of their staff just to stay competitive in an obscure way and put thousands/hundreds of hard working people on the street.

Wall street is at the heart of this problem, investors now buy cereals and rice to speculate, causing famine and food riots in various countries while they sit on tons of basic-need-products just to make profit.

I'm part of the lucky ones, I have a job, but every day, there are more people living on the streets, and today, it's not the lunatics and the anti-social any more, it's grannies and families. We're supposed to be the rich part of the world and this situation can not be tolerated any more, it's a shame for all developed countries.

This movement is simply about putting the human first again, before the needs of a capitalistic society.

I'm not an anti-capitalist, neither particularly to the left or to the right, I've never found anyone worth following, but our system is being a victim of the same problem that brought down every other system before: the greed and indifference of one human to another, this is what this movement tries to change and I support it for that, even though a good part of those who participate might not have the exact same opinion regarding the solutions that I have.

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Re: Occupy Wall Street https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34322.msg433998#msg433998
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2011, 08:34:10 pm »
This is an example of the pure power of human communication and willpower. A great learning tool and a massive power against anything, yes.

But one thing's wrong. They need to do something. Then they will get somewhere.
The fact that the tar sands pipeline project has been delayed is basically due to the success of the Occupy movement, even though it's not directly related to their central message. Also, if you read the newspaper you may have noticed a lot more stories about wealth inequality and poverty. I have -- at least that's true for the Houston Chronicle and Salon. I suspect it is true in many other cases as well. Merely changing the conversation is a hugely important contribution. Used to be that you only heard about the size of the debt.

there are lots of jobs on the market
No, you moron, the problem is that literally there aren't enough jobs. All the money is stuck at the top, when only 1% of everyone is capable of making demand there is no reason to supply, if there is no reason to supply the jobs go away. The reason OWS exists in the first place is because there aren't enough jobs because the middle and lower class don't have enough money to make them.
Name calling isn't necessary.

Also, that's one of many reasons OWS appears to exist, which is one of its biggest problems. Nobody can agree what it is even about.
Appears to exist? No. It clearly exists in part because of that problem. Why are you so suspicious of them? If there's anything you want to know any member will be happy to tell you everything. It's totally transparent and though there is no one official platform there are many statements of solidarity which are made by consensus, so it's possible to get a very clear message of what an occupy is about. Largely in response to this media criticism, many cities (Houston included) have written lists of demands and similar things.

Belthus makes some good points.

From what I have seen, the OWS movement seems to be driven by people who cant find jobs for their skill level. AKA college educated people cant find jobs that require a college degree, so they either dont work or work unskilled jobs. Unskilled (non college educated) workers cant find jobs because there arent any and the ones that are out there are being filled by over qualified college grads. and people that didnt even graduate highschool are completely out of luck.

The main issue i feel is being expressed is the following. for a few decades it was assumed that if we let the top get richer that would mean economic growth = more good jobs. Instead the top has gotten richer and the current result is less and worse jobs.

On a related note. it was assumed that getting an education would = good job. but now we see that unless you are in very few very select fields, education = same job as no education + school debt which means worse position.
I think you're wrong that the movement is mainly driven by people without jobs. That's not true of most of the people I've talked to. Many of them have good jobs (actually at least one person I know left a good job to work on the movement full time) and come to the park when they're not working. You're right that it's mostly well-educated people who are very well-informed, though there are people of all stripes. There are homeless people who are some of the most important voices. The media does try to portray this group very poorly, depending on where you look.

I'm glad to have sparked so much discussion :)

Offline UTAlan

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Re: Occupy Wall Street https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34322.msg434016#msg434016
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2011, 09:15:51 pm »
Appears to exist? No. It clearly exists in part because of that problem. Why are you so suspicious of them? If there's anything you want to know any member will be happy to tell you everything. It's totally transparent and though there is no one official platform there are many statements of solidarity which are made by consensus, so it's possible to get a very clear message of what an occupy is about. Largely in response to this media criticism, many cities (Houston included) have written lists of demands and similar things.
I did ask. I asked many people. Here was the typical response from those I interviewed at Occupy Dallas: http://youtu.be/MKtmgVkZZXM (http://youtu.be/MKtmgVkZZXM)

Also - not a single person could give me an answer for how the problems they were protesting could be resolved. They all just wanted "a voice."

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Re: Occupy Wall Street https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34322.msg434020#msg434020
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2011, 09:24:48 pm »
I did ask. I asked many people. Here was the typical response from those I interviewed at Occupy Dallas: http://youtu.be/MKtmgVkZZXM (http://youtu.be/MKtmgVkZZXM)

Also - not a single person could give me an answer for how the problems they were protesting could be resolved. They all just wanted "a voice."
Hm, not very serious, I believe. You find this guy (or his clone) at any demonstration or occupation, and he doesn't at all reflect the members of the movement I know, most are well educated people, at least here in Europe, where even the uneducated are smarter than that...

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Re: Occupy Wall Street https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34322.msg434021#msg434021
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2011, 09:27:00 pm »
I did ask. I asked many people. Here was the typical response from those I interviewed at Occupy Dallas: http://youtu.be/MKtmgVkZZXM (http://youtu.be/MKtmgVkZZXM)
This is far from the average response, and misrepresenting this as the average person in the OWS protests is not only dishonestly insulting to the movement to the point of bordering on slander, but it also shows that either you have no understanding of the movement in general or have some personal agenda in favor of corporatism. Which is it?

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Re: Occupy Wall Street https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34322.msg434022#msg434022
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2011, 09:27:40 pm »
Oh, and are you the interviewer? If you are, nice to finally see you in person, UTAlan :)

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Re: Occupy Wall Street https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34322.msg434025#msg434025
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2011, 09:40:09 pm »
This is far from the average response, and misrepresenting this as the average person in the OWS protests is not only dishonestly insulting to the movement to the point of bordering on slander, but it also shows that either you have no understanding of the movement in general or have some personal agenda in favor of corporatism. Which is it?
False dichotomy, but thanks anyway. I have a full understanding that this is not the average protester at OWS; I was just expressing that when I did interview those I came across at Occupy Dallas, these were the only kinds of answers I was receiving. I believe that there are coherent speakers who are actually sane at these protests, but I interviewed 5 people or so, and none of them gave me any answers to my main question: What kinds of solutions are you proposing? (They also all gave me a different reason for why they were there.)

Oh, and are you the interviewer? If you are, nice to finally see you in person, UTAlan :)
Sort of. I was the cameraman in this particular video.

 

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