My view on abortion, and both parents rights to the baby.

[QuantumT]

So what you are saying is that the man should have no say in it whatsoever correct?

The man does have a "say": voice but no vote. If he has a good relationship with the woman, she will listen. But he shouldn't be able to use the force of law to reduce a woman to a baby farm.

With the way you're putting it, I'm talking about the man's vote, which he doesn't have. Obviously most of this stuff isn't an issue when you have a good relationship with the woman.

[Astrocyte]

I am responding to your assertion that the mother should have no say in it whatsoever if the father is willing and able to provide for all her care plus a cash bonus.

So I can take from that that you assume abortion is an acceptable solution to the issue.

I suppose it would have to be, since the alternative is that all pregnant women are forced to carry all pregnancies to term, regardless of anyone's wishes.

In that case, why does the mother have the right to demand child support in the case that she wants the child and the father doesn't?

Because the American legal system is f@$%ked up?    Actually, because we have no system to legally qualify or quantify "intent to create a child" or "intent to raise a child."

In the OP, BluePriest actually mentioned some kind of legally binding agreement. I would seriously be in favor of this -- something specifically enumerating each side's rights and responsibilities re: monetary payment, time spent, access to the child, degree of involvement in life decisions regarding the child, etc. (there's already some precedent for this kind of thing in divorce and family law, broken as it may be).
Edit: I'd say it should be in place by the 20th week of gestation or so (early enough to cover any survivable premature births). It'd probably be hard to make a prior (presexual?) agreement that covered ALL possible circumstances.

[Daxx]

Here, have this sandwich. Nice, huh?

Sorry, did I forget to mention that it contains a rare species of tapeworm that I want to raise?

Oh, and because I am willing to pay all medical expenses, you are not allowed to remove the tapeworm, because after all I value it too much and I have the right to see it raised because it's mine. Of course, giving you money should be ample recourse for forcing you to bear a parasite within your body for a long period of time. It's not like me forcibly taking control of your body for the purposes of raising this tapeworm is akin to slavery or anything like that.

Did I mention that simply having the tapeworm will ruin your lifestyle for a good six months at least, and it significantly increases your chances of dying from a whole host of medical problems?

</unsubtle>

[Nepycros]

Here, have this sandwich. Nice, huh?

Sorry, did I forget to mention that it contains a rare species of tapeworm that I want to raise?

Oh, and because I am willing to pay all medical expenses, you are not allowed to remove the tapeworm, because after all I value it too much and I have the right to see it raised because it's mine. Of course, giving you money should be ample recourse for forcing you to bear a parasite within your body for a long period of time.

Did I mention that simply having the tapeworm will ruin your lifestyle for a good six months at least, and it significantly increases your chances of dying from a whole host of medical problems?

</unsubtle>

However, the tapeworm has no potential, and no matter how endearing you find them, they aren't exactly the base components in building a family. >.>

[Daxx]

However, the tapeworm has no potential, and no matter how endearing you find them, they aren't exactly the base components in building a family. >.>

Clearly you do not understand how much I love this goddamn tapeworm. I value it far more than any person could even value a child. Arbitrary distinctions like "potential" or "family" are entirely subjective concerns with no foundation.

[Nepycros]

However, the tapeworm has no potential, and no matter how endearing you find them, they aren't exactly the base components in building a family. >.>

Clearly you do not understand how much I love this goddamn tapeworm. I value it far more than any person could even value a child.

Will that tapeworm benefit the advancement of the human race?

[Daxx]

However, the tapeworm has no potential, and no matter how endearing you find them, they aren't exactly the base components in building a family. >.>

Clearly you do not understand how much I love this goddamn tapeworm. I value it far more than any person could even value a child.

Will that tapeworm benefit the advancement of the human race?

You bet it will.

So you see, you have to have this tapeworm inside you and you have no rights to have it removed no matter how much harm it might do to you.

[Nepycros]

However, the tapeworm has no potential, and no matter how endearing you find them, they aren't exactly the base components in building a family. >.>

Clearly you do not understand how much I love this goddamn tapeworm. I value it far more than any person could even value a child.

Will that tapeworm benefit the advancement of the human race?

You bet it will.

So you see, you have to have this tapeworm inside you and you have no rights to have it removed no matter how much harm it might do to you.

I don't totally disagree with your point. If it will potentially harm a person, then they have more rights in the matter. However, if it's been determined they are physically fit to carry the "parasite", then, at the very least, one should take into account the non-hosting parent's opinion. I mostly advocate the AGE principle, as stated a couple pages ago.

[Daxx]

However, if it's been determined they are physically fit to carry the "parasite", then, at the very least, one should take into account the non-hosting parent's opinion. I mostly advocate the AGE principle, as stated a couple pages ago.

So you consider that essentially enslaving a person for nine months is acceptable? This isn't just hyperbole here, you appear to genuinely be advocating that someone should be forced to lose control of their body, have it irrevocably altered, be exposed to health risks, work harder, and undergo psychological and physiological trauma, all on the preference of another person who bears no risk in any part of the process and for whom you've yet to establish any substantive benefit.

[Nepycros]

However, if it's been determined they are physically fit to carry the "parasite", then, at the very least, one should take into account the non-hosting parent's opinion. I mostly advocate the AGE principle, as stated a couple pages ago.

So you consider that essentially enslaving a person for nine months is acceptable? This isn't just hyperbole here, you appear to genuinely be advocating that someone should be forced to lose control of their body, have it irrevocably altered, be exposed to health risks, work harder, and undergo psychological and physiological trauma, all on the preference of another person who bears no risk in any part of the process.

(-_-) <- Converted Face.

Understood. The amount of trauma that the mother takes is so immense, that no matter the circumstances, the father has no say.

[YoungSot]

However, the tapeworm has no potential, and no matter how endearing you find them, they aren't exactly the base components in building a family. >.>

Clearly you do not understand how much I love this goddamn tapeworm. I value it far more than any person could even value a child. Arbitrary distinctions like "potential" or "family" are entirely subjective concerns with no foundation.

This argument once again points to the crux of the matter; Do humans have value on their own, apart from what other humans think? I say yes, but then that becomes "religious" and we're not talking about that. So the only alternative left is to ignore the base assumptions and just say what we all "feel" is right, without basing that "rightness" on anything in particular.

[Daxx]

Understood. The amount of trauma that the mother takes is so immense, that no matter the circumstances, the father has no say.

Pay attention, it's not about trauma. It's about the lack of control and choice. That's the difference, for example, between sex and rape.