My view on abortion, and both parents rights to the baby.

[Neopergoss]

Until science advances to the point that Arnold Schwarzenegger's pregnancy becomes a reality, I really don't see a better solution. If she decides to birth the child but not keep it, she has the same burden if the father tries to raise it. For reasons already explained, the choice about whether to birth the child should be hers alone.

The mother shouldn't get to have her cake and eat it too. Either she gets full control of the choice AND the consequences or she gets neither.

Difference of opinion. Since the child has to bear the consequences as well I don't think it's fair for either parent to be able to walk away without any consequences.

[QuantumT]

Until science advances to the point that Arnold Schwarzenegger's pregnancy becomes a reality, I really don't see a better solution. If she decides to birth the child but not keep it, she has the same burden if the father tries to raise it. For reasons already explained, the choice about whether to birth the child should be hers alone.

The mother shouldn't get to have her cake and eat it too. Either she gets full control of the choice AND the consequences or she gets neither.

Difference of opinion. Since the child has to bear the consequences as well I don't think it's fair for either parent to be able to walk away without any consequences.

But the mother can.

[Neopergoss]

Until science advances to the point that Arnold Schwarzenegger's pregnancy becomes a reality, I really don't see a better solution. If she decides to birth the child but not keep it, she has the same burden if the father tries to raise it. For reasons already explained, the choice about whether to birth the child should be hers alone.

The mother shouldn't get to have her cake and eat it too. Either she gets full control of the choice AND the consequences or she gets neither.

Difference of opinion. Since the child has to bear the consequences as well I don't think it's fair for either parent to be able to walk away without any consequences.

But the mother can.

Only before birth. The only reason she can is biology. It may not be fair, but only women can give birth.

[Kael Hate]

Btw, I also know someone who has to pay for a child he doesn't take care of. He has some financial problems, but I don't feel for him the same way as the person whose father walked out on them.

My Father Walked out on me. I laughed him in the face when he threated to cave my head in. Do you feel for me?
Don't you think I would be a different maybe even better person if he walked on me on day 1 rather than when I was a growing child?

	Mother wants child	Mother doesn't wants child
Father wants child	Family	this thread
Father doesn't wants child	Single Mother	Abortion

Lol, but true.




Are we looking at this from our cultural, social and legal views within each of our own situations or should we look at it from a utopian view. Ie View from Nature vs View from Nurture.
Should our social programming change the result?

[Neopergoss]

Btw, I also know someone who has to pay for a child he doesn't take care of. He has some financial problems, but I don't feel for him the same way as the person whose father walked out on them.

My Father Walked out on me. I laughed him in the face when he threated to cave my head in. Do you feel for me?
Don't you think I would be a different maybe even better person if he walked on me on day 1 rather than when I was a growing child?

I do feel for you. But I'd like to point out that your point is extraneous (maybe you're the one arguing based on personal experience). I'm specifically arguing that a father should be compelled to provide financial assistance for his children; I also believe he should help in other ways, but if he is unfit then that's another story.

Are we looking at this from our cultural, social and legal views within each of our own situations or should we look at it from a utopian view. Ie View from Nature vs View from Nurture.
Should our social programming change the result?

Not sure what you mean by utopian view. I gave some quotes about fatherhood from evolutionary and cross-cultural perspectives because you seemed to be interested in the nature vs nurture issue. Care to comment?

edit: looks like I must not have posted that. I'm away from the computer where I typed it right now so I'll have to wait to actually post it.

[QuantumT]

Only before birth. The only reason she can is biology. It may not be fair, but only women can give birth.

It seems to me like the reciprocal of the mother being able to have an abortion is that the father can walk out on the mother before the child is born.

You can't really talk about the child needing to have the father, because when the father is leaving the mother, no child exists.

Why are you so willing to punish the father for a choice he has no control over?

[BluePriest]

I think there are several different cases that need to be looked at here.

1)Underage (<18) mother
2)Random Encounter (>18)
3)Rape
4)Family situation* (where they came to make one)
5)Family Situation* (where it was purely for fun)

*Family Situation does not require marriage. It just requires a couple that is in a serious relationship.

[Kael Hate]

Why are you so willing to punish the father for a choice he has no control over?

Agree++

[Neopergoss]

Only before birth. The only reason she can is biology. It may not be fair, but only women can give birth.

It seems to me like the reciprocal of the mother being able to have an abortion is that the father can walk out on the mother before the child is born.

You can't really talk about the child needing to have the father, because when the father is leaving the mother, no child exists.

Why are you so willing to punish the father for a choice he has no control over?

If the mother gives birth to the child and the father has already walked out, the father isn't providing support for his child. For the child's sake, his financial support is required. It's not about punishing the father.

[BluePriest]

Only before birth. The only reason she can is biology. It may not be fair, but only women can give birth.

It seems to me like the reciprocal of the mother being able to have an abortion is that the father can walk out on the mother before the child is born.

You can't really talk about the child needing to have the father, because when the father is leaving the mother, no child exists.

Why are you so willing to punish the father for a choice he has no control over?

If the mother gives birth to the child and the father has already walked out, the father isn't providing support for his child. For the child's sake, his financial support is required. It's not about punishing the father.

So let me get this straight. You are saying that if the mom doesnt want the baby, and the father does, the abortion happens because the mother shouldnt have to keep it just because the father wants it. Meanwhile, if the mother wants it and the father doesnt, she gets to choose to have the baby, and force the father to pay child support?  That is a double standard if I have ever seen one.

[Neopergoss]

Only before birth. The only reason she can is biology. It may not be fair, but only women can give birth.

It seems to me like the reciprocal of the mother being able to have an abortion is that the father can walk out on the mother before the child is born.

You can't really talk about the child needing to have the father, because when the father is leaving the mother, no child exists.

Why are you so willing to punish the father for a choice he has no control over?

If the mother gives birth to the child and the father has already walked out, the father isn't providing support for his child. For the child's sake, his financial support is required. It's not about punishing the father.

So let me get this straight. You are saying that if the mom doesnt want the baby, and the father does, the abortion happens because the mother shouldnt have to keep it just because the father wants it. Meanwhile, if the mother wants it and the father doesnt, she gets to choose to have the baby, and force the father to pay child support?  That is a double standard if I have ever seen one.

Yes, it's so unfair that only women can get pregnant and therefore naturally have an advantage here. If you don't like it, the best thing is really to try to change biology because I'm not aware of a better alternative. Maybe if you could bear a child you would stop thinking of it as a pure advantage

[OldTrees]

Only before birth. The only reason she can is biology. It may not be fair, but only women can give birth.

It seems to me like the reciprocal of the mother being able to have an abortion is that the father can walk out on the mother before the child is born.

You can't really talk about the child needing to have the father, because when the father is leaving the mother, no child exists.

Why are you so willing to punish the father for a choice he has no control over?

If the mother gives birth to the child and the father has already walked out, the father isn't providing support for his child. For the child's sake, his financial support is required. It's not about punishing the father.

So let me get this straight. You are saying that if the mom doesnt want the baby, and the father does, the abortion happens because the mother shouldnt have to keep it just because the father wants it. Meanwhile, if the mother wants it and the father doesnt, she gets to choose to have the baby, and force the father to pay child support?  That is a double standard if I have ever seen one.

Yes, it's so unfair that only women can get pregnant and therefore naturally have an advantage here. If you don't like it, the best thing is really to try to change biology because I'm not aware of a better alternative. Maybe if you could bear a child you would stop thinking of it as a pure advantage

So forcing a woman to give birth violates their rights but forcing a man to pay support does not violate their rights?
The property right to one's body and the property right to currency are the same type of right.
PS: The man supporting the mother's child is ideal but not required. Interesting how that parallels the woman giving birth to the father's child being ideal but not required.