Feminism

[Savage]

There are many misconceptions of what feminism is. For purpose of simplicity, women just want equality and do not want to be suppressed/abused as they have been historically. The arguments for why it is okay to suppress women lie almost firmly in genetic fallacies. Example: calling someone not human simply because they got 2 X-chromosomes rather than XY.

Note: Same species should be able to mate and make babies.

In this thread, maybe you have heard many stereotypes about what feminism is or it's goals. Maybe you think it is dumb. Simply explain why you feel the way you do and support it 

Remark: my argument is that men realize women are just as human as they are, but why treat women with respect when you can benefit your life even more by suppressing them? Kind of relates to slavery and rich people as well. Argument: You benefit from other people's misfortunes.

[Naesala]

Wow, you kinda went everywhere with that. First of all, I think

The arguments for why it is okay to suppress women lie almost firmly in genetic fallacies. Example: calling someone not human simply because they got 2 X-chromosomes rather than XY.

Note: Same species should be able to mate and make babies.

is a bit off. I have yet to meet anyone, even chauvinistic women-hating men, who believe that women are sub human, and that that contradicts your later "my argument is that men realize women are just as human as they are". Also there are reasons outside "why treat women with respect when you can benefit your life even more by suppressing them? Kind of relates to slavery and rich people as well. Argument: You benefit from other people's misfortunes." for men to suppress women.Traditionally it was said that men kept women out of politics because they knew it was corrupting and they wanted women pure to set a good example for children. Additionally shear hatred, fear of the unknown, learned sexism, traumatic experiences with a female figure, and many other reasons can be why a man might hate a woman.

Now as for the rest of your thoughts, I agree and think are what you want to talk about here. My issue with feminism is that I have had to deal with too many Radical feminists and women using "feminism" as a protection for their sexism to wish to identify as a feminist. I am all for women's equality, but I won't identify as feminsit because I have had bad experiences with them. For the most part, when asked, I say I'm an "equalist", for everyones equality (this also conveniently covers my views on most other matters as well.)

[RootRanger]

I like the term "equalist." Thanks for that. I think I'll start using it.

There is certainly a need to give women equal rights in the lesser developed countries, but women pretty much have equal rights in modern day America, which is unfortunately a large focus of the feminism movement. One could even argue that women have slightly superior rights. If a woman is accidentally pregnant, she can have an abortion and avoid all responsibilities to the child. If a man accidentally impregnates a women, then he could potentially be responsible for a child he does not want to have. There's no law that allows a man to "detach" from the legal responsibilities of having a child in the same way a woman can choose to have an abortion. But...I suppose that's a fair price to pay for never having to give birth. It could be argued either way, I guess.

[Naesala]

I like the term "equalist." Thanks for that. I think I'll start using it.

There is certainly a need to give women equal rights in the lesser developed countries, but women pretty much have equal rights in modern day America, which is unfortunately a large focus of the feminism movement. One could even argue that women have slightly superior rights. If a woman is accidentally pregnant, she can have an abortion and avoid all responsibilities to the child. If a man accidentally impregnates a women, then he could potentially be responsible for a child he does not want to have. There's no law that allows a man to "detach" from the legal responsibilities of having a child in the same way a woman can choose to have an abortion. But...I suppose that's a fair price to pay for never having to give birth. It could be argued either way, I guess.

No problem ^_^

I've heard many people argue about whether women (in America) have less, more, or equal rights. As best I've been able to tell it's...equal but different. Men have a handful of rights women don't and vice versa. I'd say in America things are more or less balanced, within a reasonable amount. Now, for sure, this isn't true in other nations, and in other nations women certainly need a -lot- more rights.

[Cheesy111]

It really frustrates me when I hear feminism described as equal rights for women or, in this case, "women just want equality and do not want to be suppressed/abused as they have been historically".  Regardless of personal viewpoint, it's fairly clear that there is much more ideological baggage in the term given its history and present-day usage.

[Absol]

I like the term "equalist." Thanks for that. I think I'll start using it.

Very exactly my thoughts. Feminist is now almost a derogatory term, what with the "chivalry vs sexist" thingy.

EDIT: as long as you're not a Straw Feminist, you're an "equalist".

[Savage]

Not quite guys. Women are far from equality in the US. It is just that people have become so accustomed to how they are treated it seems normal.

Stats:

a) 2008: Out of 2million sexual assaults against women in the work place, only 900,000 were actually reported. That number drops significantly when you take into consideration how many cases were actually ruled in favor of the woman.

b) Women right now are paid 77c for every dollar a man makes in similar work.

Other remarks: women on TV really don't get famous unless they are used as pleasure. Example: Beyonce at the SuperBowl stripping down. That one girl who was on 'The Voice' a season or two ago dressed slutty. Also, notice that black women must look as white as possible to get accepted. This is why it is extremely rare to have a famous dark black woman on TV. Most likely, like Beyonce, they will take creams and cosmetics to look as white as they can.

[Naesala]

Not quite guys. Women are far from equality in the US. It is just that people have become so accustomed to how they are treated it seems normal.

Stats:

a) 2008: Out of 2million sexual assaults against women in the work place, only 900,000 were actually reported. That number drops significantly when you take into consideration how many cases were actually ruled in favor of the woman.

b) Women right now are paid 77c for every dollar a man makes in similar work.

Other remarks: women on TV really don't get famous unless they are used as pleasure. Example: Beyonce at the SuperBowl stripping down. That one girl who was on 'The Voice' a season or two ago dressed slutty. Also, notice that black women must look as white as possible to get accepted. This is why it is extremely rare to have a famous dark black woman on TV. Most likely, like Beyonce, they will take creams and cosmetics to look as white as they can.

I completely disagree with many of your statements.

a) Your study is 5 years old. Also, something I've always wondered, if only 900,000 were reported, how do we know that 2 million occurred? I'd love to see where you get your information rather than anonymously quoting stats.

b) Again, a source would be nice. Now, while I also can't provide sources (hypocritical i know), but according to a paper written by a friend of mine for his college english class, this statistic is skewed because it neglects the fact that women get additional benefits (more leave time, especially due to pregnancy) and sometimes these statistics factor in housewives into there statistics, which dramatically alters the statistics.

Also, there are PLENTY of famous women who don't rely on there looks, and plenty of black women who don't make themselves whiter. Julie Andrews, Whoopi Golberg,  Gabourey Sidibe, Raven Simone, Oprah Winfrey, Phyllis Diller, just to name a handful.

[mypetmachine]

Oh goody! A bunch of men are going discuss feminism! 

There are plenty of well-documented sources available that show how few sexual assaults go unreported" and how few of those that are reported actually result in a conviction.

The disparity in wages is well-documented. Unpaid leave for child birth hardly makes up for it (and men qualify for FMLA leave also).

Make a list of "unattractive" female celebrities, even regardless of race. Then make a similar list of male celebrities. Tell me which one was easier to make and which one was longer.  Then make a list of women who are older and still considered "sexy" versus older "sexy" men, and which ones remain bankable stars.

[Naesala]

Oh goody! A bunch of men are going discuss feminism! 

There are plenty of well-documented sources available that show how few sexual assaults go unreported" and how few of those that are reported actually result in a conviction.

The disparity in wages is well-documented. Unpaid leave for child birth hardly makes up for it (and men qualify for FMLA leave also).

Make a list of "unattractive" female celebrities, even regardless of race. Then make a similar list of male celebrities. Tell me which one was easier to make and which one was longer.  Then make a list of women who are older and still considered "sexy" versus older "sexy" men, and which ones remain bankable stars.

I'm a MtF transgender, I am not a man. Maybe you should check peoples profiles before assuming things . Oh, and to assume men can't be feminists (which, by definition, is anyone who advocates for women's rights) is a very sexist attitude.

Reported versus conviction isn't what I'm curious about, I want to know how it is that sexual harrassment numbers can be accurately gathered if they aren't reported. If you could point me to a reliable source, I'd accept it.

My point wasn't "unattractive" celebrities, my point was that women don't have to sexualize themselves to become great actresses. If anything, it's the "easy way out".  Plenty of women are great actresses without relying on there looks, and that was the point I was refuting.

I have seen plenty of cases, but very few examples of data. Most resources I find say that the disparity could be for several reasons besides sexism. One source I found even said they took the median wage of men and women (all men and women surveyed, including "unemployed" and housewives, and factoring in that medians tend to be less accurate than averages) to get there results. There is a wage gap, yes, but I have yet to see a convincing source for the -reason- for the gap, and the statistics in most sources don't show where they got the data.

As for sexy older men, Sean Connery comes to mind~. It's just a matter of opinion.

[Savage]

Oh goody! A bunch of men are going discuss feminism! 

There are plenty of well-documented sources available that show how few sexual assaults go unreported" and how few of those that are reported actually result in a conviction.

The disparity in wages is well-documented. Unpaid leave for child birth hardly makes up for it (and men qualify for FMLA leave also).

Make a list of "unattractive" female celebrities, even regardless of race. Then make a similar list of male celebrities. Tell me which one was easier to make and which one was longer.  Then make a list of women who are older and still considered "sexy" versus older "sexy" men, and which ones remain bankable stars.

Naesla: type in searches like 'women in the work place' and 'women's violence at work' and you will find tons of reliable sources...3 good ones coming from Yahoo's journalists.

Are there plenty of women not with the norm of how women are stereotyped to be in America? Of course, but the number that are goes way past that. Just look at high-schools. Girls are already beginning to dress sexually/unmodest (ask your mom if you don't agree).

Look at rap videos: the women are doing very sexual dances and are usually surrounded by many guys. It's all over the media lol. Women are taught to be a certain way: the way men want them to be.

If you disagree, bring up a resource (plenty of them if you can) because your opinion=/=valid source.

[Naesala]

Naesla: type in searches like 'women in the work place' and 'women's violence at work' and you will find tons of reliable sources...3 good ones coming from Yahoo's journalists.

Are there plenty of women not with the norm of how women are stereotyped to be in America? Of course, but the number that are goes way past that. Just look at high-schools. Girls are already beginning to dress sexually/unmodest (ask your mom if you don't agree).

Look at rap videos: the women are doing very sexual dances and are usually surrounded by many guys. It's all over the media lol. Women are taught to be a certain way: the way men want them to be.

If you disagree, bring up a resource (plenty of them if you can) because your opinion=/=valid source.

Do you honestly think I haven't done basic google searches? As I said, the sources haven't been showing me where they got there data, they're just throwing numbers. As it is a popular viewpoint in modern America, it would be easy for someone like a yahoo journalist to skew statistics to post something popular.

I did not deny that women in highschools may sexualize themselves due to a media representation. However -that wasn't the point I was refuting-. Jumping on tangents does not help your argument. And, once again, I'd like to say while it affects some women, it is not as many as the media would make it out to be. In my experience, only the least intelligent most impressionable women in my school dressed this way. Most others dress responsibly (And my mother agrees, since apparently that's a valid source )

I hate rap. If youre going to look at rap, then its worth noting every other thing about rap. (Needlessly bragging, saying oneself has tons of sex [men and women], talking about being rich for doing nothing, glorifying drugs, glorifying violence.) A bad example, in my opinion.

To clarify, one last time: I am not of OPPOSITE OPINION, I just believe your examples are poor ones and the the gap between men and women isn't as big as it may seem because I haven't seen convincing data otherwise. I don't have a ton of sources for my side either, I am relying on personal experience because neither side has provided me with the source for their data, only statistics.