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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Feminism https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49219.msg1070431#msg1070431
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2013, 07:22:03 am »
Following.

1)
I have also had trouble tracking down a valid source for numbers of unreported incidents. I have succeeded in getting lost in wild goose chases that go on forever as people just keep quoting quotes of quotes of quotes of this one talking point. If there was a valid source it is so long buried that I cannot trust the quote.

2)
The wage gape is so well documented that it almost disappears when looking at apples to apples rather than entire market to entire market. The entire female market is not apples to apples with the entire male market as a result of steryotype and genetic pressure to raise a family.

This is not to say that there are not inequalities. Just that there should be better examples.
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Offline Jenkar

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Re: Feminism https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49219.msg1070434#msg1070434
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2013, 07:46:49 am »
Not sure what this topic "asks", really.

Feminism as an equalist movement is a right thing imo. However, most feminists i've known are of the kind that ask for the petty things (take the example of hurricane names that had to have some male names thrown in. I mean seriously wtf.)

There is also the fact that most that i've known do not want to "abrogate the benefits" centuries of machism gave them. Example : divorce laws. Here, if i were under 13, if my parents divorced, my "mother" could easily claim 5/7 days of care for me even though she probably is : a) in the top 10 of people i hate on earth, b) a gigantic mental stress. Basicly any mother (short of obvious physical/mental harm to children) could easily claim those. (For the record : after 13 i might've still, but my word would have had at least a little weight in the judge's decision).
I personally find this very hypocritical.

Also rape laws not covering much the case where a male gets raped. Bleh.

I do agree that there's a problem. However it's a problem of equality in societies, not only a problem of "female are "less" compared to men in society's view".

TL;DR : Equality, good. Hypocrisy, bad.
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Offline mypetmachine

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Re: Feminism https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49219.msg1070670#msg1070670
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2013, 03:45:13 am »
I just wanted to clarify that I don't think men cannot be feminists, just that a bunch of men discussing it is like a bunch of white people talking about racism. Also, appologies-I actually had read your profile once upon a time but for some reason remembered your gender as male.

I would be going digging for links right now but I only have phone 'net access, and I HATE doing research via phone.
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Re: Feminism https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49219.msg1070677#msg1070677
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2013, 04:01:32 am »
I just wanted to clarify that I don't think men cannot be feminists, just that a bunch of men discussing it is like a bunch of white people talking about racism. Also, appologies-I actually had read your profile once upon a time but for some reason remembered your gender as male.

I would be going digging for links right now but I only have phone 'net access, and I HATE doing research via phone.
Well thank you ^_^ and my profile did used to say male, so that could explain the confusion.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Feminism https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49219.msg1070678#msg1070678
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2013, 04:01:45 am »
I just wanted to clarify that I don't think men cannot be feminists, just that a bunch of men discussing it is like a bunch of white people talking about racism.
What is your point? Assuming your point is not sexist then all you said was "A bunch of redheads talking about botany".
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Offline SavageTopic starter

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Re: Feminism https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49219.msg1070695#msg1070695
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2013, 04:37:48 am »
Naesla...you make a lot of assumptions. The examples I gave were simply examples. I did not imply I was refuting your claims. Also, I am sorry you fail to find vaild resources. Here are a few:

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-toughest-issues-women-face-workplace-1735425.html.

Chait Barnett, Rosalind. " Preface: Women and Work: Where Are We, Where
   Did We Come From, and Where Are We Going?" Journal of Social Issues, Vol. 60, No. 4,    pp. 667--   674, 2004

McCain Nelson,  Colleen. "Poll: Most Women See Bias in the Workplace." Wall Street Journal.

Offline Naesala

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Re: Feminism https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49219.msg1070700#msg1070700
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2013, 04:58:36 am »
Naesla...you make a lot of assumptions. The examples I gave were simply examples. I did not imply I was refuting your claims. Also, I am sorry you fail to find vaild resources. Here are a few:

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-toughest-issues-women-face-workplace-1735425.html.

Chait Barnett, Rosalind. " Preface: Women and Work: Where Are We, Where
   Did We Come From, and Where Are We Going?" Journal of Social Issues, Vol. 60, No. 4,    pp. 667--   674, 2004

McCain Nelson,  Colleen. "Poll: Most Women See Bias in the Workplace." Wall Street Journal.
I made no assumptions. Please tell me what my "assumptions" are so that I can explain further. All I've done has refute your points and point out a lack of data.

1) Your source is 5 years old and quotes things even older. While still comparable, I feel it's information may be outdated.
2)The source openly admits that it doesn't know why women are less employed in management positions.
3)It mostly quote other sources rather than giving data, which is the entire problem Oldtrees and I have. Quoting other sources (especially old ones) does nothing if we can't find the original data, how it was taken, or when it was taken.
4) I will agree that non-mandatory maternity pay/short maternity leave is something that frustrates me regarding the United States. But I also think working 40+ hours a week is dumb. I think businesses in general overwork there employees and underpay them. I dont think, in this case, it is sexism or denying women's rights so much as the nature of capitalist go-go-go work-work-work America.
5) "Women are more likely to suffer serious injury from workplace violence than men are" Well, this may be due to simply a difference of physical strength. That, at least, has been proven with data recently (that women, in general, tend to have less upper body strength). In this section, too, there was no comparison to men. I'd love to see how they compare. I mean, it even follows up with "Employers need to take the time to implement workplace violence prevention for all employees. They also need to have policies in place and make sure all employees are aware of the steps and precautions when dealing with a workplace violence situation."

I'm glad you provided a source, but it didn't satisfy what I was missing. I've seen a thousand articles like this, and they all just quote other papers. i want something giving me data. E.g. "We conducted a survey of X women and X men and Y women reported violence and Z men reported violence". That would sate me, especially that first word. We. Not "some other paper said"
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Offline SavageTopic starter

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Re: Feminism https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49219.msg1070711#msg1070711
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2013, 06:02:59 am »
Well, maybe if you would look up the sources used, you would understand they are all valid. If Source A comes from sources B and C and B/C are given as valid then source A becomes valid. You have not refuted the resources used. You argument is simply that the sources may date a few years...that's it.

Naesla: type in searches like 'women in the work place' and 'women's violence at work' and you will find tons of reliable sources...3 good ones coming from Yahoo's journalists.

Are there plenty of women not with the norm of how women are stereotyped to be in America? Of course, but the number that are goes way past that. Just look at high-schools. Girls are already beginning to dress sexually/unmodest (ask your mom if you don't agree).

Look at rap videos: the women are doing very sexual dances and are usually surrounded by many guys. It's all over the media lol. Women are taught to be a certain way: the way men want them to be.

If you disagree, bring up a resource (plenty of them if you can) because your opinion=/=valid source.
Do you honestly think I haven't done basic google searches? As I said, the sources haven't been showing me where they got there data, they're just throwing numbers. As it is a popular viewpoint in modern America, it would be easy for someone like a yahoo journalist to skew statistics to post something popular.

I did not deny that women in highschools may sexualize themselves due to a media representation. However -that wasn't the point I was refuting-. Jumping on tangents does not help your argument. And, once again, I'd like to say while it affects some women, it is not as many as the media would make it out to be. In my experience, only the least intelligent most impressionable women in my school dressed this way. Most others dress responsibly (And my mother agrees, since apparently that's a valid source ;) )

I hate rap. If youre going to look at rap, then its worth noting every other thing about rap. (Needlessly bragging, saying oneself has tons of sex [men and women], talking about being rich for doing nothing, glorifying drugs, glorifying violence.) A bad example, in my opinion.

To clarify, one last time: I am not of OPPOSITE OPINION, I just believe your examples are poor ones and the the gap between men and women isn't as big as it may seem because I haven't seen convincing data otherwise. I don't have a ton of sources for my side either, I am relying on personal experience because neither side has provided me with the source for their data, only statistics.


Hating rap is irrelevant here. Does not refute my position I was using. Rap is an example of how norms are used. You can see examples in other institutions as well. Religion condemns women (see genesis, king david, and Paul refuting women for doing men's jobs). The family suppresses women (men can abuse their wives and basically get away with it). Rape towards women is normalized (men being charged with rape is rare). Before a few months ago, it was impossible for women to excel in the military (didn't have access to combat).

Again, these are just examples of what I am getting at. All of these are true statements in general. So, if you don't agree, please quote something valid (you don't count as valid).

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Re: Feminism https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49219.msg1070787#msg1070787
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2013, 04:18:25 pm »
If I quoted a sources from the 1920's saying illegal booze consumption was at an all time high, it would not apply today. If source A is from 2008 uotes Source B from 2002 quote Source C from 1999, etc. etc., the sources are invalid due to age. This is one of -the- first things I was taught in college english: If it's older than 5 years (even if it actually has data), you must concede that a reasonable amount of change in society has happend that the source's data is unreliable, and can only be used as a comparison to "back then".

As Old trees and I said, and I'll make it bold so you'll see it this time: We don't care about quotes, we want data with how they got their statistics from a source that isn't outdated, because all we can find is sources quoting sources quoting sources.


Did you not read the rest of that post? I pointed out that rap may be a bad example because it glorifies doing -tons- of bad things. I'm not saying it doesn't count, I'm just saying that one bad amongst a mix of bad tends to be an indication of problem in the source (rap) and the supporter (listeners) not the observer (society).

Old religious texts are mostly not applied, again, a bad example, because old religious texts also condemn eating pork and getting tattoos. People don't generally hold themselves to these standards.

I'd love to see your data. Your generalization is broad, and I highly, highly doubt there is a majority of families abusing women. Also, women can abuse men too. Shocking, I know.

Rape is FAR from normalized. No way. Rape is still an incredibly delicate subject. And once again, I'd like to point out that women can rape men.

A few months ago, the U.S. removed a ban on a -few, select positions-. Women have been participating in combat for a long time. Women have been in combat since World War 1. And I would also like to say one needn't be involved in on the ground combat to excel in the military, there are plenty of other ways to excel. Relevant

Saying your statements are true in general doesn't make it so.

Saying I'm not a valid source and then not providing any sources (except one, which I refuted completely with logical, fair reasoning) is hypocritical. I'm giving my interpretations on the same things you are posting and saying why they may not be right. You seem to be the type who looks for any little thing to claim your side without looking at those things as a whole.
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Offline cometbah

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Re: Feminism https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49219.msg1072412#msg1072412
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2013, 08:27:00 pm »
I would like to point out that there are different 'kinds' of feminists.

Some feminists do believe that the 'feminine' is superior to the 'masculine'. In fact, the onset of one of the major waves of feminism involved the recognition that 'masculine' characteristics are not characteristics inherent to males, but, rather, the set of characteristics deemed desirable for any patriarchal society. And if one were to disagree with the societal standard of desirability, then, by definition, one considers the 'feminine' to be superior to the 'masculine', and that people in general, including men, should be more feminine.

The concept of 'equality' also carries different meanings for different feminists. For some (including some of the earliest feminists), equal opportunity to employment and career advancement is not equality.

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Re: Feminism https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49219.msg1073170#msg1073170
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2013, 01:56:24 pm »
Not quite guys. Women are far from equality in the US. It is just that people have become so accustomed to how they are treated it seems normal.

Stats:

a) 2008: Out of 2million sexual assaults against women in the work place, only 900,000 were actually reported. That number drops significantly when you take into consideration how many cases were actually ruled in favor of the woman.

In Canada, there are over 500 women's only shelters for sanctuary from domestic abuse, rape, and other violent acts.  For men, there are exactly 0.  There used to be one, but the founder ran out of money to support it, and was repeatedly denied grant funding from the Government of Canada - and was repeatedly denied hearings on whether such a position from the gov't was sexist.  (protip: it is.)  When a woman in our society speaks out against having been mistreated, we all muster arms to protect her - well and good.  However, when a man is mistreated (roughly 50% of domestic violence cases!), there is no such structure in place.  Instead, he's to 'suck it up,' or 'be a man about it.'  So, if we're using unsupported assumptions about non-reported cases of violence, which gender do you honestly think is reporting less?

Quote
b) Women right now are paid 77c for every dollar a man makes in similar work.

Factually untrue.  As an annual average (once again, I'm Canadian, so I'll use Statistics Canada's dataset), women do make about 75% of what men do.  Women are, on average, also away from the workplace about 30% more often then men.  Net result: hourly, on average, a Canadian woman can expect to make about 5-8% MORE than a Canadian man.


Quote
Other remarks: women on TV really don't get famous unless they are used as pleasure. Example: Beyonce at the SuperBowl stripping down. That one girl who was on 'The Voice' a season or two ago dressed slutty. Also, notice that black women must look as white as possible to get accepted. This is why it is extremely rare to have a famous dark black woman on TV. Most likely, like Beyonce, they will take creams and cosmetics to look as white as they can.

Once again, factually untrue (not to mention trivial).  How many Hustler spreads do you think Hilary Clinton was considered for?  Maya Angelou?  Condeleeza Rice?  Whoopi freakin' Goldberg?  What you're doing is providing a list that points more toward your own confirmation bias than to reality.

So, you've asked for opinions of Feminism?  Here's mine: it's an odious ideology, based on 19th-century Socialism as blended with French postmodernism, which prefers an individual's personal feelings of fear, inadequacy, or petulance -assuming she's of the right gender- as evidence of a vast, cynical scheme (the 'patriarchy').  I wouldn't care (much as I don't about most foolish ideologies), except that Feminism holds and abuses political power.

Striking points: name one single invention, designed and created by a feminist woman, for the betterment of women specifically.  Now, name 20 designed and created by non-feminist men, for the betterment of women specifically.  Patriarchy?

In your own hometown, name 2 battered women's shelters.  Now, expanding to your state/province/administrative district, name 2 battered men's shelters.

If the lack of women in Engineering, Politics (where there isn't one, but whatever), the military, and other traditionally masculine endeavours is due to gendered oppression, then please explain Norway - verifiably the most (officially) gender-neutral country on Earth - where 90% of nurses are women, and 95% of engineers are men.  By choice.

My major problem with the political power wielded by modern feminism isn't so much the power, as the unequal way in which its used.  Namely, enforcing upon society the conflation of equal opportunities with equal results.  One thing that I find telling is, for every feminist commanding attention be brought to the 'glass ceiling' of boardroom politics, you hear exactly ZERO bringing attention to the 'glass basement' of homelessness/disenfranchisement (homeless is nearly synonymous with 'male'), or the 'glass coffins' of front-line soldiers, oil-riggers, deep-sea fishermen, etc.  Yup, men make less hourly, for the priviledge (a favourite Feminist screeching point) of dying for that money (92% of fatal work injuries are to men).  Patriarchy?

The other major problem I have with Feminism is that it does a disservice to all of the intelligent, capable women I've known throughout my life.  The sorts of women who REFUSE to be cast in a victim's role; the sorts of people who are mistresses of their own fates, and most important, accept responsibility for it.  The sorts of women who hate the idea of Big Sister making decisions 'for their own good' as much as they hate the idea of Big Brother doing the same.  I think women are capable of speaking their minds, and having minds worth speaking - as long as they're not taught from birth that their oppressors are listening in for any possible chance to smite them down.

The real kicker is the cynicism required of the commited Feminist: there is no room for romance, nobility, honour, or sacrifice, in a world where writing notes is equated with 'rape;' charitible sacrifice is equated with 'priviledge;' taking contractual responsibility is equated with 'patriarchy;' and earning a future for one's children is 'abandonment.'  I guess I just like people too much to be a feminist.

Finally, a little bit of reasoning: if women really do work for 77% of what men make, then why hasn't every single corporation on Earth made it policy to hire only women, and see an immediate 23% savings on payroll?

(sources: Statistics Canada; Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries, US Dep't of Labor.


TL;DR: first, provide evidence of 'patriarchy.'  Then, maybe, this discussion can go somewhere.
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Offline cometbah

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Re: Feminism https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=49219.msg1073336#msg1073336
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2013, 12:21:33 am »

TL;DR: first, provide evidence of 'patriarchy.'  Then, maybe, this discussion can go somewhere.

Again, not all feminists consider 'equal income' (or even universal suffrage, for that matter) as 'equality'.

In my opinion, the fact that there are more male engineers than female engineers is not necessarily a sign of patriarchy. The fact that men are, as you say, told to 'suck it up' or 'be a man about it', however, probably is.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 12:28:29 am by cometbah »

 

blarg: