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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Every American that isn't already pissed off should glance at these. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21773.msg285524#msg285524
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2011, 05:43:32 pm »
Poor is a very relative term. You can be poor and have no debt (except maybe a house) if you have restraint. Many people I know that say they are poor are living a rich lifestyle, which is one of the main reasons they are poor. Americans need to learn to live inside their means instead of taking lessons from the government.

The only thing we "deserve" are life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You dont deserve that 8,000 dollar car, you dont deserve that 150,000 dollar house, or that big screen tv or a ps3, or any other thing.

This is getting me angry thinking about this.I know so many "poor" people that complain about not having enough money whike they have a cell phone, 3 cars, and all their kids have a cell phone.  It is possible to live without cell phones. Get a home phone and dial up internet. Then get some rabbit ears. That you to be normal.
 
Im going to stop now otherwise ill keep ranting on and on
Yes, plenty of people are poor because they simply don't know how to save money, and the culture here needs to change in this way. Relentless advertising has been very effective at getting people to spend regardless of how much they have. I really think this needs to be included in basic education -- it's a fundamental life skill. More generally, I think a lot of people are poor because A) their parents had no material wealth to pass down, and B) because they don't have the fundamental skills they need to live properly (again, skills that their parents also lacked).

Nevertheless, putting all that aside, if some people are freezing to death (or dying of heat stroke) because they can't afford to pay their electric bills while other people can't even keep track of how many mansions they own, is it wrong to tax the latter to help the former?

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Re: Every American that isn't already pissed off should glance at these. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21773.msg285610#msg285610
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2011, 07:58:17 pm »
It costs billions of dollars to enter the market on Law or Justice.
It costs less to immigrate to a member of the oligarchy on Law and Justice.
Most cannot afford the first.
A significant portion cannot even afford the second.
Republican Politicians are rarely right when discussing Patriotism.
Most people can't afford to start their own restaurant, either. Does that mean that the food service industry is fundamentally flawed?And besides that, there is some variation in law between different states and between different cities. Moving out of the country is the only way to avoid some, but not all, US laws.

But to make a more serious point, perhaps some things simply don't lend themselves to competition. Clearly this is true for some industries with economies of scale. But I would argue that it's true for law and justice as well. These two concepts are universally applied. We can't have some nuts start their own country in the middle of the US where it's OK to steal, rape, and murder.
Part of being able to enter a market is access to consumers. A significant portion of consumers of Law and Justice cannot change providers because moving is too expensive. Hence there is an enforcement of the oligarchy.

One example where the US Government has it right is in the market of business contracts. Specifically it does not prevent private sources of Arbitration. This competition in the market of Justice on business contracts has resulted in the private sources innovating superior methods of justice on these contracts and thus private arbitration is the major source of the Justice on business contracts.

However you brought up a very good point on the economies of scale. As seen in the Arbitration example some sources of Justice would have sufficient diseconomies of scale to create sufficient long term competition. This may or may not be true for other sources of Law and Justice. What I can tell you is that Government can through deficit spending ignore diseconomies of scale until the populace revolts.

Also Law and Justice need not be universally applied. There would be intragroup Laws and intergroup Laws and intragroup and intergroup Justice. People would belong to many groups each with there own set of Laws and/or Justice.

I would be perfectly okay with a territory where Stealing, Rape and Murder were legal provided the residents of that district agreed to that lack of Laws. I however would make sure that my community increased the penalty for kidnapping across that border including jurisdiction to follow a kidnapper back across said border.
However each of those is bad terms to use.
If Stealing is legal then legal property rights do not exist therefore it is communal property not theft. This is actually a basis for Anarchocommunism.
Rape/Murder is defined as at least partially non consensual hence the only people who would agree to the lack of such a law would be a Rapist/Murderer. If Rapists/Murders agree to only rape/murder each other then I am unsure if it would be a bad thing. Everyone in that community agreed to the risk of rape/murder so is it still non consensual?
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If an activity needs to be done then is there a more valued alternative?
If there is a more valued alternative then does the activity need to be done?
Consider a private company running the fire department or the police department. How can a fire department be profitable? Should people be charged every time their building catches fire for the cost of extinguishing it? Do you like the idea of private contractors acting as police officers? What about the military? Should the US military be completely composed of Blackwaters (now Xe Services)?
Have you heard of Lighthouses? Did you know back before all this technology and radar there was a concern that it would be impossible to charge the right ships because the light from a light house was not able to be sent to one ship but not another. The private market found a solution while the public nature of light still existed. (now "light" from lighthouses can be made private as radar signals but there was a more primitive answer that worked prior to then)
As for Fire departments the common anarchist answer to that is Pay as you use and or Contracts like an insurance.
Do I like the idea of private police agencies? Yes provided diseconomies of scale.
Anarchists tend to promote passive military so using Blackwater and other Mercenary agencies as a defensive army would work fine provided diseconomies of scale.

I personally would concede that if an anarchy version of a submarket would cause a worse monopoly than a government then that is a suitable role for the government to take until innovation removes the problem.
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Offline BluePriest

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Re: Every American that isn't already pissed off should glance at these. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21773.msg285783#msg285783
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2011, 11:45:33 pm »
More generally, I think a lot of people are poor because A) their parents had no material wealth to pass down, and B) because they don't have the fundamental skills they need to live properly (again, skills that their parents also lacked).

*sneezes*
Sorry, im allergic to bullcrap.

A)I received no money from my parents. I had to buy my car, pay for my insurance, and didnt get a cell phone until I could pay for it on my own. My first car was 13 years old and we found it for 900$. Eventually my parents couldnt afford the internet and I had to pay for dial up if I wanted it. 
B) Self Control,  patience, and a work ethic are something that everyone should have. Ive been working at Pizza hut delivering pizza for over a year now. Before that, I worked for an internet company, selling internet and doing tech support. Both jobs, all I needed was a good work ethic, and I was trained to do the rest. Meanwhile, I had to use self control on the things that I wanted, and patience for the things that I felt I had to have.

To Succeed, one of the most important factors is to want it enough. If you dont want it enough, you will never succeed, and you will keep thinking that you "deserve" things you dont want. I called my 1st job 5-6 times and never heard back, then finally went in to see the boss.  He said he knew I called several times, could tell I wanted the job, and hired me on the spot.
Nevertheless, putting all that aside, if some people are freezing to death (or dying of heat stroke) because they can't afford to pay their electric bills while other people can't even keep track of how many mansions they own, is it wrong to tax the latter to help the former?
depends on if those people freezing to death are actually trying all options. Honestly, I doubt they are.
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Every American that isn't already pissed off should glance at these. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21773.msg285968#msg285968
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2011, 05:11:14 am »
A)I received no money from my parents. I had to buy my car, pay for my insurance, and didnt get a cell phone until I could pay for it on my own. My first car was 13 years old and we found it for 900$. Eventually my parents couldnt afford the internet and I had to pay for dial up if I wanted it. 
B) Self Control,  patience, and a work ethic are something that everyone should have. Ive been working at Pizza hut delivering pizza for over a year now. Before that, I worked for an internet company, selling internet and doing tech support. Both jobs, all I needed was a good work ethic, and I was trained to do the rest. Meanwhile, I had to use self control on the things that I wanted, and patience for the things that I felt I had to have.

To Succeed, one of the most important factors is to want it enough. If you dont want it enough, you will never succeed, and you will keep thinking that you "deserve" things you dont want. I called my 1st job 5-6 times and never heard back, then finally went in to see the boss.  He said he knew I called several times, could tell I wanted the job, and hired me on the spot.
Just...wow. OK, let me put it this way: did you grow up in an abusive family? Were both of your parents able to raise you together? Were you exposed much to drugs and alcohol at an early age? Were any of your friends? Did you receive a good education?

If you really think the only reason that you're not in poverty is because you were just born better than all those stupid, poor rabble, you're not being realistic. Sorry to burst your bubble. Because that's really what you're saying. Sure, some people are able to make it out of even the worst conditions, but most of the time it drags them down. If your parents can't manage their lives in the most basic of ways, it's very hard to learn the skills they're supposed to teach. I'm not talking about the money to afford cars, cell phones, and internet. That's not true poverty. It's hard to be patient when all you know is desperation.

Quote
depends on if those people freezing to death are actually trying all options. Honestly, I doubt they are.
So you'd roll the dice and see if they could figure it out on their own? You're right, because all those mansions are just so important. What's the value of the life of someone who couldn't manage to stay warm?

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Re: Every American that isn't already pissed off should glance at these. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21773.msg285989#msg285989
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2011, 05:50:36 am »
lol, talk about twisting words. No offense, but you dont know the first thing about me. id appreciate it if you didnt talk like you did. I honestly feel disgusted at your wording and feel its time to leave this discussion. All I basically said was the only way to make some people work is to stop giving them handouts.

ps, who are you to force people to do certain things with money they earned? For the record, i think they SHOULD help people, however, they SHOULDNT be forced. This isnt a dictatorship.


I dont like what you are saying, so instead of continuing o talk like I should since we are having a debate, i am going to make like a wisconsin democrat and get outta here :P
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Every American that isn't already pissed off should glance at these. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21773.msg286258#msg286258
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2011, 05:24:34 pm »
You don't have to continue the discussion, but I feel the need to address what you said.
lol, talk about twisting words.
I don't think I was being unfair. You said that people are poor because they don't "want it enough" and they don't have "self control, patience, and work ethic." I had already said that the problem was that people weren't taught fundamental life skills. You called that argument bullcrap. If 1)the problem isn't that they weren't taught these skills and 2)they don't have them, then what you're saying is that they should've been born with them.

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No offense, but you dont know the first thing about me. id appreciate it if you didnt talk like you did.
I asked questions about you. I didn't actually stake any claims. Granted, it was implied I expected a certain answer, but I never claimed to know anything. I just think that for you to say "It's easy to succeed despite humble beginnings, I did it!" isn't fair if there are others who started with much less, so I wanted to know if there are in fact others like that.

Quote
I honestly feel disgusted at your wording and feel its time to leave this discussion.
I'm sorry if you didn't like my tone, but I frankly didn't like yours. You called my argument bullcrap and I felt you were belittling the plight of the less fortunate in this country, something I happen to care about.

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All I basically said was the only way to make some people work is to stop giving them handouts.
And what I'm saying is that handouts aren't the problem. I'd like some data for a claim like that, not just an implication.

Quote
ps, who are you to force people to do certain things with money they earned? For the record, i think they SHOULD help people, however, they SHOULDNT be forced. This isnt a dictatorship.
I understand your aversion to "forced" taxes, but it's a basic facet of civilized societies. The rich benefit the most from society, so they should also give back the most in the form of taxes. They also have the least need. I know you think they SHOULD help people, but we have to be realistic: people are greedy, and they will hoard money.


Quote
I dont like what you are saying, so instead of continuing o talk like I should since we are having a debate, i am going to make like a wisconsin democrat and get outta here :P
That's your prerogative. However, this isn't a state legislature and if you don't respond to what I'm saying I'm going to have to assume it's because you don't have a good counterargument :P

Offline Neopergoss

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Re: Every American that isn't already pissed off should glance at these. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21773.msg286414#msg286414
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2011, 09:44:44 pm »
I personally would concede that if an anarchy version of a submarket would cause a worse monopoly than a government then that is a suitable role for the government to take until innovation removes the problem.
I accept your apology.  :))
jk  :P I love Stephen Colbert.

But seriously, I did a little research on private security, but I didn't find enough evidence to adequately support the points I wanted to make. In case you're interested, though, it seems like the private military right now just isn't well-regulated and it isn't as easily controlled by government as the public military. It also has a history of getting away with human rights abuses because the government hasn't followed up on prosecuting such abuses. With regards to private security in the form of security guards, the only good source I found was from the early 90's, but it was consistent with my experience as a security guard: there are lots of large companies involved with security, and since their biggest cost is personnel, they try very hard to minimize it.  They pay very little and there is extremely high turnover. They spend almost no time or effort screening employees (eg: no drug tests) and often instead of actually firing an employee, they will relocate them to another location. There was more, but I can't seem to find that source again...most of that was what I actually remember from working as a security guard.

All that wasn't enough for me to conclude that private security is necessarily problematic when compared to public security, but this belief seems to be a pretty widely held assumption. Blackwater is infamous for committing human rights abuses, and security guards are condescendingly referred to as "rent-a-cops." There's definitely a creepy mercenary vibe to private security. If I had more time I might find more and better evidence.

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Re: Every American that isn't already pissed off should glance at these. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21773.msg286516#msg286516
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2011, 11:21:12 pm »
I personally would concede that if an anarchy version of a submarket would cause a worse monopoly than a government then that is a suitable role for the government to take until innovation removes the problem.
I accept your apology.  :))
jk  :P I love Stephen Colbert.

But seriously, I did a little research on private security, but I didn't find enough evidence to adequately support the points I wanted to make. In case you're interested, though, it seems like the private military right now just isn't well-regulated and it isn't as easily controlled by government as the public military. It also has a history of getting away with human rights abuses because the government hasn't followed up on prosecuting such abuses. With regards to private security in the form of security guards, the only good source I found was from the early 90's, but it was consistent with my experience as a security guard: there are lots of large companies involved with security, and since their biggest cost is personnel, they try very hard to minimize it.  They pay very little and there is extremely high turnover. They spend almost no time or effort screening employees (eg: no drug tests) and often instead of actually firing an employee, they will relocate them to another location. There was more, but I can't seem to find that source again...most of that was what I actually remember from working as a security guard.

All that wasn't enough for me to conclude that private security is necessarily problematic when compared to public security, but this belief seems to be a pretty widely held assumption. Blackwater is infamous for committing human rights abuses, and security guards are condescendingly referred to as "rent-a-cops." There's definitely a creepy mercenary vibe to private security. If I had more time I might find more and better evidence.
I am glad you joined the conversation. (although you and BluePriest should calm down because neither of you intended to offend the other.)

Anarchy, Mercenary, Self Interest, Wealthy have all developed negative connotations over the years. This is due to a variety of causes but it does make it harder to reasonable consider the position.

The 3 problems with anarchy that I see are:
1) Economies of scale. Certain industries like most of the subsets of Law and Justice would have disasterous side effects if they were monopolized and put in the wrong hands. Such a situation would attract those wrong hands. Thus economies of scale in Law and Justice are dangerous to the function of an anarchy.
2) Irresponsibility. Not everyone is willing to be as responsible as a member of an anarchist would need to be. Most people like putting some of there responsibility on someone else to make some of there choices for them.
3) Desire for archy. A sufficient number of people may prefer a state to an anarchy. Tastes differ and that must be respected. A reasonable anarchist would not impose anarchy on someone that reasonable preferred a state provided that sponsor of archy did not force government on those that did not reasonably prefer a state.
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Re: Every American that isn't already pissed off should glance at these. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21773.msg286540#msg286540
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2011, 11:47:14 pm »
150 (http://www.commonsenseadvice.com/human_cortex_dunbar.html) -- it's the maximum tribe size the human brain can tolerate without instinctively seeking some archy somewhere. 

You'll like this part, OT:

Quote
What is most unique about this company is that each company plant is no larger than 150. When constructing a plant, they put 150 spaces in the parking lot, and when people start parking on the grass, they know it's time for another plant. Each plant works as a group. There are no bosses. No titles. Salaries are determined collectively. No organization charts, no budgets, no elaborate strategic plans.
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Re: Every American that isn't already pissed off should glance at these. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=21773.msg286552#msg286552
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2011, 11:58:23 pm »
150 (http://www.commonsenseadvice.com/human_cortex_dunbar.html) -- it's the maximum tribe size the human brain can tolerate without instinctively seeking some archy somewhere. 

You'll like this part, OT:

Quote
What is most unique about this company is that each company plant is no larger than 150. When constructing a plant, they put 150 spaces in the parking lot, and when people start parking on the grass, they know it's time for another plant. Each plant works as a group. There are no bosses. No titles. Salaries are determined collectively. No organization charts, no budgets, no elaborate strategic plans.
Nice information, hasty conclusion on your part though.

"This figure seems to represent the maximum amount of people that we can have a real social relationship with - knowing who another human is and how they relate to us."
After this size we deal with people based on what they are and how that group relates to us rather than who they are and how they relate to us.
So after 150 we seek order not states. We seek Laws not Governments and to protect those Laws we seek sources of Justice not Archy.

However this is another good example of a diseconomy of scale for me to remember.
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anything
blarg: