European Union. Does it need to become more like the US?

[darkrobe]

. true.

2000 years of differences is equivalent to needing a simple adapter to be able to plug and charge my phone anywhere in europe.

Im not trying to belitte the history of europe here. I had to take european history in highschool, lot of stuff, i dont know anything. Im just pointing out that differences are a matter of perspective. I say Im from virginia or from colorado. and you say big deal you are all Americans. You say your german, or italian. I say big deal, your all Europeans. 

Ps. Italy is wonderful and germany was very welcoming while i was there. 

[Zeru]

For the US. Slow growth is a crisis.

No it's not. A slow growth cannot ever be called a crisis. The answer is that the GDP per capita does not show you all the facts you need. That sentence above is simply biased. "We are so awsome that a slow growth is considered a catastrophe here". Very flawed reasoning.

[darkrobe]

Yah i know. the flashy chart wasnt really meant to support my points, only meant to put the polish chart in perspective by comparing it to a same chart of the US GDP per capita. You say polish economy works fine, But it had a more substantial drop in GDP than the US. and the US has recovered that GDP, while the chart shows the Poland still has yet to make up the loss.

Doom and gloom is the reaction you will get from alot of americans. Most americans think the economy is terrible. But we have had slow growth eversince the end of 2009. the economy is generally recovering at this point. The issue is that the growth has not yet made up for the loss experienced during 2009. There are also a lot other factors, including worries about the future size of the US Dept that add to the negative attitude.

The statement I made regarding slow growth and the US was an observation about how people in the US react to slow growth. That does not make it the correct reaction. Nor is it my reaction to the current economic status. I happen to be doing just fine.

[Aves]

Im not trying to belitte the history of europe here. I had to take european history in highschool, lot of stuff, i dont know anything. Im just pointing out that differences are a matter of perspective. I say Im from virginia or from colorado. and you say big deal you are all Americans. You say your german, or italian. I say big deal, your all Europeans. 

You are marginalizing too much. Differences are a matter of persepective- fine. But following your train of logic, The US and Mexico and Canada are all North Americans and NAFTA should be expanded to become the foundation of another supranational state. And we are all human, and so we must all have enough in common to eventually set up one unified nation state by expanding the UN.

Differences do matter. You can't arbitrarily group peoples whose ancestors have been clashing for centuries and have their own nationalities into one nation. Make them agree on some policies and trade, sure. Stamp out their culture, nationality, and pride? Never. I keep bringing this point up because the EU is a fundamentally different Union than that of the compact forged by the People of the United States, and shouldn't be compared in the way you're trying to. The US Constitution is based off of the people, and describes the workings of a nation. The EU was set up by its member states, and works more in the realm of international cooperation. It has and should continue to forge its own model, as the US and EU have different goals in their workings.

You are marginalizing too much. Differences are a matter of persepective- fine. But following your train of logic, The US and Mexico and Canada are all North Americans and NAFTA should be expanded to become the foundation of another supranational state. And we are all human, and so we must all have enough in common to eventually set up one unified nation state by expanding the UN.
snip*

frankly, I wouldn't mind this, and if we colonize other planets, this is most likely what will happen, but it probably won't happen for a very long time, but either way, as information becomes more pervasive and travel becomes easier, if the middle class continues to grow and we don't get any super-dictators it might very well happen within the next two or three centuries.

In that scenario, I probably would support unification too, as our socio-economic situation (similar technological capabilities, economic situations, etc) would support it.  But is the middle class growing? In the developing world, yes- but there's human rights issues to solve- and in the developed world, absolutely not.

[darkrobe]

Technically Mexicans, Americans, and Canadians are all North Americans.

Nafta eliminated Tariffs, but Mexicans and canadians dont travel to the US without a passport.  Nafta isnt all lovey dovey. There are issues with loss of manufacturing jobs in US due to cheap labor in mexico and food problems in mexico due to cheap US agribusiness food. That being said. If we were going to increase connectiveness between US and mexico and Canada more so than NAFTA already does, I do honestly believe that would require more connection between governments, maybe even a central power. So then I guess if that point ever came I could ask the very same question Im asking here about europe. Does the US, Mexico, and canada need to be more like the US is today?

Side note, Americans used to have a "manifest destiny" attitude about north america. Where we believed that everything in north america should be part of the united states. We stoped expanding after we reached the pacific, but the idea that all of North america might be united into one country has never been that far fetched an idea to americans. its one of the reasons we have gone to war with mexico actually.

And I dont see why the UN doesnt have the ability to become a world government. If we were ever attacked by aliens, they would be a good place to start rallying together all the worlds countries. Because in comparison to the threat, difference between humans wouldnt seem that big.

National identity is an acquire trait, it is something that is taught. The child of an immigrant to america will often have the same love for america and consider themselves just as american as someone whose ancestors rode over on the mayflower. The idea that a national identity cant be changed just doesnt agree with history.

The US constitution was written after we declared independece. it wasnt even our first attempt at a national government. and it was set up in a congress of member states. with representatives selected by the people in each state. We have even had states try to leave because they didnt agree with other states, and try to set up a completely different union of states. (Civil War) You make it sound as if USA started from day one as USA. In reality, the idea that the federal government was supposed to be a weak tying agent between States, (states that were mostly independent) was the main idea behind the american government for a large part of our history. it is quite easy to develop a broad national identity in 200 years.

[nerd1]

You are marginalizing too much. Differences are a matter of persepective- fine. But following your train of logic, The US and Mexico and Canada are all North Americans and NAFTA should be expanded to become the foundation of another supranational state. And we are all human, and so we must all have enough in common to eventually set up one unified nation state by expanding the UN.
snip*

frankly, I wouldn't mind this, and if we colonize other planets, this is most likely what will happen, but it probably won't happen for a very long time, but either way, as information becomes more pervasive and travel becomes easier, if the middle class continues to grow and we don't get any super-dictators it might very well happen within the next two or three centuries.

[Aves]

Im not trying to belitte the history of europe here. I had to take european history in highschool, lot of stuff, i dont know anything. Im just pointing out that differences are a matter of perspective. I say Im from virginia or from colorado. and you say big deal you are all Americans. You say your german, or italian. I say big deal, your all Europeans. 

You are marginalizing too much. Differences are a matter of persepective- fine. But following your train of logic, The US and Mexico and Canada are all North Americans and NAFTA should be expanded to become the foundation of another supranational state. And we are all human, and so we must all have enough in common to eventually set up one unified nation state by expanding the UN.

Differences do matter. You can't arbitrarily group peoples whose ancestors have been clashing for centuries and have their own nationalities into one nation. Make them agree on some policies and trade, sure. Stamp out their culture, nationality, and pride? Never. I keep bringing this point up because the EU is a fundamentally different Union than that of the compact forged by the People of the United States, and shouldn't be compared in the way you're trying to. The US Constitution is based off of the people, and describes the workings of a nation. The EU was set up by its member states, and works more in the realm of international cooperation. It has and should continue to forge its own model, as the US and EU have different goals in their workings.

You are marginalizing too much. Differences are a matter of persepective- fine. But following your train of logic, The US and Mexico and Canada are all North Americans and NAFTA should be expanded to become the foundation of another supranational state. And we are all human, and so we must all have enough in common to eventually set up one unified nation state by expanding the UN.
snip*

frankly, I wouldn't mind this, and if we colonize other planets, this is most likely what will happen, but it probably won't happen for a very long time, but either way, as information becomes more pervasive and travel becomes easier, if the middle class continues to grow and we don't get any super-dictators it might very well happen within the next two or three centuries.

In that scenario, I probably would support unification too, as our socio-economic situation would support it.  But is the middle class growing? In the developing world, yes- but there's human rights issues to solve- and in the developed world, absolutely not.

[loran]

I'm european (french).
And i'm sorry to say that :
Europeans are peacefull, there is good people.
But :
- mostly majors politicals don't work for people, they work against people (they destruct social system and they give full power to financial)
- European union is not democratic. You have to search on google "how work EU".
All law are written by "the commission", an near out of control organisation in bruxelles. They imagine law (ultra-liberalism) and write it. Only After that, at parlement, senators of all country vote yes or no about theses law. But the don't make it. And there is a huge lobbysm and corruption.
- EU laws have priority on States law (and media system rarely speak about it). 90% of my important land laws come from EU. So my vote is nothing. My president is nothing.
- In EU, money is like US money, this is not a "state" and free money, it's a private one. So this money make debt and crisis. EU is more a destructor of nations, like FMI in africa or south america.

[darkrobe]

Some new blood in the conversation. . welcome.

I have heard some of the problems france has had with the EU. i believe there was some initiatives to move europeans to more renewable energy, but the EU doesnt count nuclear as renewable so werent they trying to make you all lower the number of nuclear plants you power your grid off of?

I actually saw some comment on this topic on Fareed Zakaria yesturday if anyone watches him. In summary they were saying that the EU was like a couple that decided against getting married, but then decided it was a good idea to share a checking account.

[Neopergoss]

In summary they were saying that the EU was like a couple that decided against getting married, but then decided it was a good idea to share a checking account.

I can tell you from experience that this often results in disaster. 

[vivimancer]

I can tell you from experience that this often results in disaster. 

very very true, a guy I used to work with never even told his wife, (whom he had been married to for 8 years) how much money he made.

but back on topic,

I don't know about France but I know that Britain will be going more nuclear in the next 20 years because its the only way to meet our carbon targets, that we are legally bound to achive.

Europe is not like America at all and trying to compare them is dildos.  America has a single language, cultural and national identity and no sustained history of killing each other (no the american civil war doesnt count.)  Europeans can't even decide on things like plug sockets, the EU was a reaction to the horrors of the second world war and loran you have it sooo right I agree with everything you say + rep     

[nerd1]

I can tell you from experience that this often results in disaster. 

very very true, a guy I used to work with never even told his wife, (whom he had been married to for 8 years) how much money he made.

but back on topic,

I don't know about France but I know that Britain will be going more nuclear in the next 20 years because its the only way to meet our carbon targets, that we are legally bound to achive.

Europe is not like America at all and trying to compare them is dildos.  America has a single language, cultural and national identity and no sustained history of killing each other (no the american civil war doesnt count.)  Europeans can't even decide on things like plug sockets, the EU was a reaction to the horrors of the second world war and loran you have it sooo right I agree with everything you say + rep   

actually, the civil war should count, more Americans died in it than in any other conflict (including the word wars.) Also, while Americans usually speak the same language, the US has no "national language" and quite a few Americans only speak spanish or whatever their language is. While yes, Europeans  do have many different languages, many Europeans speak English, and if Europeans truly wanted to become a single country, something like that could happen withing a century, but, again, this is only if Europeans wanted to do this, if the individual countries didn't want to become a single country, it would never work out, barring an outside threat forcing them to unite (like an alien invasion, or even just a very belligerent country.)