European Union. Does it need to become more like the US?

[darkrobe]

I think we are getting back to why i posted in the first place.

Why is it possible for the EU to survive but a single currency is unworkable? or reversed, what is the purpose of the EU if there is no Euro?

[Aves]

The EU is bigger than just the Euro. The Euro was created EU, not the other way around. The EU coming together strengthened the individual states, and it does have other functions besides the Euro.

The EU has developed a single market through a standardised system of laws which apply in all member states. Within the Schengen Area (which includes EU and non-EU states) passport controls have been abolished.[12] EU policies aim to ensure the free movement of people, goods, services, and capital,[13] enact legislation in justice and home affairs, and maintain common policies on trade,[14] agriculture,[15] fisheries and regional development.[16]

  However, disparate economic statuses and policies = tough odds for a unified currency. 10 of the 27 nations of the EU never joined the Eurozone, and when you have countries like Italy, Spain, and Greece stacked with Germany...

[darkrobe]

 

The EU has developed a single market through a standardised system of laws which apply in all member states. Within the Schengen Area (which includes EU and non-EU states) passport controls have been abolished.[12] EU policies aim to ensure the free movement of people, goods, services, and capital,[13] enact legislation in justice and home affairs, and maintain common policies on trade,[14] agriculture,[15] fisheries and regional development.[16]

 
^^^ "standardised system of laws", "passports have been abbolished", "legislation in justice and home affairs" "common trade policies"     <----- sounds like a federal government similar to US system. albeit with less power and less legitimacy.

So back to my main question. Does the EU need to do more of ^^^^^ (aka more standardization, more common legislation and trade policies.) and be more like the US with a strong central ruling power that controls things like trade, regulations, war, fiscal policy, and monetary policy. or should it do less of it and become more like a bunch of separate countries.

I believe Europe is in the awkward place where it is trying to be both at the same time.

[Aves]

You're kind of missing the point. The EU IS a group of separate countries.  It's like saying that because the US and Mexico are both in the UN, and part of NAFTA, and because of the common usage of US dollars in Mexico, that the US and Mexico should be considered 1 nation. The members of the EU could very well be independent, if they wished it. They can pull out at any time. They are not trying to be a single nation.  In contrast, the states in the US can hardly be thought of as having the capacity to be independent.

Idealistically, if a world government and unified Earth could work, then I'd be all for that. But it cannot work in the face of our socioeconomic differences.

The EU cannot implement unity on the scale of a single nation, because it is not one, but many nations. There is no feasible way to bring about that degree of unity in economic and cultural disparity.

[darkrobe]

Yes the EU IS a group of seperate countries. at no time did i mean to imply that it wasnt. I am not arguing that europe is one country.

That is not my point. my point is that europe has made a half hearted attempt to unify itself economically, without giving any real authority to the central powers (EU) that would make that economic and policy unity work.

I find all this argument about whether or not EU can be one nation or not irrelevant to my question. Which is... If they want to continue down a path of increased economic unity. do they have to go through the extra step of giving more political and legislative authority to a central governmental institution that has actual power over member countries? or can they skip that and just hope everyone gets along?

[Zeru]

If they want to continue down a path of increased economic unity. do they have to go through the extra step of giving more political and legislative authority to a central governmental institution that has actual power over member countries?

Not sure how that central institution would have any power at all. Firstly, each country can quit any time they want. Secondly, at least in the case of Poland, our Constitution has higher authority than EU directives.
Also, why do we even need a central governmental institution? EU in it's roots was an international trade organization (European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) and the European Economic Community (EEC)).
Removing taxes on importation and other trade barriers is a huge enough boost for the European economy overall.

or can they skip that and just hope everyone gets along?

Actually, that is a more feasible idea. It worked like that from the beginning and it will continue to work like that for a long time.
Just look at your "central institution". Presidency of the Council of the European Union is currently held by Poland. So formally, my government is supposed to have a leading voice in the overall strategy of Europe. In reality though, the most influential countries are Germany and France. Formal titles mean nothing when compared with economical advantages. The more central organs of EU would press individual countries, the more apparent would it be that they are ignored.

The bottom line is:
Each country knows what is the best for them, and they will highlight their objections. Putting a central power above them? In the end that power would have to listen to each individual government.

what is the purpose of the EU if there is no Euro?

Removing trade barriers. Forming universal strategy. Military alliance. Minimizing economical differences between countries. Allowing for easier migration with the EU.
Each of these work whether you have Euro or not. The currency is only a tool to achieve those goals, not the other way around.
Poland has never used Euro, even though it joined 7 years ago and I can still see that we benefited a lot from our membership.

[darkrobe]

Yay. someone who is addressing my question!!!.

1. Each country can quit any time it wants. <- would that not cause economic hardship to that country? Texas threatens to leave the US all the time. that doesnt mean it will, or actually can. Some countries may have more freedom in that than others, obviously if you never adopted the euro, you have more freedom than a country that has.

2. EU developes "overall strategy of europe".  Why do you need an overall strategy? If it doesnt matter what the EU says and every country can just do what they want. Why do you bother with the charade?

3. "removing trade barriers" to the degree that Europe has requires some sort of central authority to oversee integration. making sure that products meet the same standards. That a lamp made in Poland will plug into a light socket in France. Simple things like that dont just magically happen. Its not the same as a, "Well i wont tax you if you dont tax me." That kindof agreement doesnt require councils and boards.


Im not saying that a central power will one day rule over europe with an iron fist. In america the issue of states rights versus the power of the federal government is an ongoing issue. Each state has its own government. And the Federal government cannot always dictate what laws state write. (they can offer incentives and often do, as well as punishments)

If you have a central authority that oversees military unity, economic unity, that legislates. how is that not a kind of psuedo government? What does the government of a single individual country do on a day to day basis?


The Euro, it seems to me, is in trouble because everyone is on the same currency, but their is no central fiscal policy that governs how individual countries treat the euro. You say the euro wont work because of socieoeconomic differences. Yet the united states has 50 seperate economies controled by 50 different governments yet they all run on the same currency. how is that posisble? The economic conditions of california are certainly not the same as those of alaska or Indiana. Why can america pull off one currency but europe cant?

[Zeru]

1. Each country can quit any time it wants. <- would that not cause economic hardship to that country? Texas threatens to leave the US all the time. that doesnt mean it will, or actually can. Some countries may have more freedom in that than others, obviously if you never adopted the euro, you have more freedom than a country that has.

Obviously, as long as the being in EU benefits us, we stay in it. That "economic hardship" you refer to is simply the situation from before joining UE. Sure, reforming your currency is harsh, but it was done in history and in many cases it helped in the long run. Texas you say? As I mentioned above, EU is a collective of independent countries. Each has their national law above the EU directives. So of course they can leave.

Why do you need an overall strategy? If it doesnt matter what the EU says and every country can just do what they want. Why do you bother with the charade?

So that we know why we are doing this union in the first place? Overall strategy was to help below-average members to develop. What does it give us? Below-average members receive free money (obviously a good offer). Above-average countries by helping their neighbours improve, can benefit from feedback, which includes:
- Boost to trade
- New chances for good investments
- Lower migration problem (you Americans should try it, invest in Mexico and give them jobs in their own country, maybe less of them will come to you illegally)

The point is, that the "overall strategy" is a product of a consensus of all the members. And it actually works.

That a lamp made in Poland will plug into a light socket in France.

I heard rumours from Polish emigrants that they used to use ice-cream sticks to make their accessories work abroad (don't even ask how). Sure, universal law enforced standards are nice, but the free market has a tendency to fix that kind of problems by itself.

What does the government of a single individual country do on a day to day basis?

Everything? I'd like to remind you that Poland (not the entire EU) was one of your allies vs Iraq.

The Euro, it seems to me, is in trouble because everyone is on the same currency, but their is no central fiscal policy that governs how individual countries treat the euro.

How does that bother me, a non-euro user? Cheaper import from the west, yay!
The chart does not show figures from 2009-2011, but it's still a nice, dynamic growth.
This entire thread is weird. A person living in a country that is facing one of the biggest depressions in their history is telling me, a person living in a place, where economy works fine, that we are in trouble.

[darkrobe]

I didnt mean for the thread to be weird. Obviously I am an outsider. To me, as an outsider, I see what europe is doing. More unity, more integration, etc. as head down a direction that the US took like 200 years ago. That doesnt mean the trend will continue, or that it should. I just dont understand why everyone is like.... oh no, countries merging together is impossible. thats never happened before in the history of the world.

However, please dont make the argument that US is worse off than europe. not when europes financial crisis is what has everyone on edge. as for the US's "biggest depression" we can compare US and Poland during the same time period.

Spoiler for polish GDP compared to US GDP.


this is a fun comparison chart that the world bank puts up.
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:USA:POL&ifdim=country&tstart=-285015600000&tend=1292821200000&hl=en&dl=en&q=us+gdp+per+capita#ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:POL:USA&ifdim=country&tstart=-285015600000&tend=1292821200000&hl=en&dl=en



Edit: Im not arguing against anyone in particular by the way. I feel like people are handing off the conversation. so maybe ill argue against something you didnt even say. but someone probabl said it before you and i merged the thoughts together.

[Zeru]

So what does that chart tell us? That USA is overreacting the crisis?

[darkrobe]

For the US. Slow growth is a crisis.

[Brontos]

It's easy to federate when you don't have more than 2000 years of History.