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Offline russianspy1234

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg534864#msg534864
« Reply #144 on: August 19, 2012, 08:29:08 pm »
Mitt Romney in a heartbeat. Obama is the second worst president in history behind LBJ. He has driven up the national debt, more people are out of work, he has stalled the recovery with things like Dodd frank and has socialized healthcare with obamacare.

Bush added a far greater percentage to the national debt.  When he took office, we had a budget surplus, and his tax cuts and spending turned that into the biggest budget deficit we've ever had.  The national debt was 10.66 trillion on the day bush left office, so he roughly doubled the debt, and thats only counting his years in office, not the policies like his tax cuts that are continuing to add to the deficit to this day.  The biggest contribution to the debt has been the bush tax cuts, the second has been going to war with nearly every country in the middle east EXCEPT the one that the majority of the people that attacked us were from.  And then there was the fact that Bush never actually counted what the Iraq and Afghanistan war costs, and thus the national debt didn't count them.  Has the national debt increased a lot under Obama? Yes, but, but the vast majority of it has been due to Bush policies, and in fact, had Obama changed absolutely nothing and just continued what Bush was doing, the national debt would be higher.

Secondly, thinking Obamacare socialized healthcare shows a willful ignorance.  Sure, it makes for a nice bumper sticker for your car, but it's not even close to accurate.  First off, there is a big difference between health insurance and health care.  Obamacare passed rules on regulations on how much health insurance companies are allowed to screw you over.  For example, I've almost always had health insurance, occasionally switching to different ones due to work situations.  A little while ago I switched insurances, and a few months after that, I got sick and ended up in the hospital for a week.  Had certain provisions of Obamacare not recently come into effect, my insurance would have been allowed to just drop me, and not only that, they would have been able to tell the hospital that they would cover me, and then refuse to pay after it was all done, so I would have been on the hook to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for treatment I technically could have gone without.  Seriously, health insurance companies used to employ people whose specific job it was to look at claims, and if they were for procedures that were too expensive, go through they're file and find a reason to drop them.  Google rescission, check out some of the stats on what insurance companies did to women who got breast cancer, and tell me that a policy like that should be legal.  What about preexisting conditions?  Should a baby born with a minor heart murmur never be allowed to get insurance?  What about women?  Before Obamacare, in many states, women would have to pay more for the same coverage as men, and even more than that if they've ever been abused.  That's right, being beaten by your spouse is a preexisting condition.  And those are just a few of the egregious policies Obamacare has stopped.

And then, there is the fact that you use "socialism" as if it is objectively bad in every situation.  Here's a fun little passage I like to show people:
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal power utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the Nation Aeronautics and Space Administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After work I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshall's inspection, and which has not plundered all of its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log into the Internet which was developed by the Defense Advance Research Projects Administration and post on freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD and because the government cant do anything right.

I have nothing against limited government. However, too much government destroys wealth. Government run amok is socialism. Once Obamacare is fully implemented going to be a flop. The costs are sky high. Government can not distribute health care efficiently because it does not have to compete. Competition brings prices down. People will end up having to wait months and months even to get crappy care. They can't get private care because they can't afford to pay more taxes. Plus our national debt will rise even higher.

P.S. DARPA didn't create the internet. It may have contributed some to the effort, but it sure as hell didn't create the internet.

Do you even know what socialism or Obamacare are?  Like I said, willful ignorance.  Look up what Obamacare actually does before arguing against it, because it in no way allows the government to distribute healthcare.

the government setting regulations on what people (even corporations) can do is not government run amok.  Before government regulations, tobacco companies were allowed to run ads that said 4 out of 5 doctors recommend smoking a pack of camels a day to live longer.  Cildren's toys were made with led, and buildings were made with asbestos.

Yes the internet probably would have been created eventually without DARPA, it would have taken a lot longer and it wouldn't have been centralized so it would have been a lot worse.  no one is saying the government does anything and everything better than private corporations, just that sometimes you need both. republicans are saying that everything would be better if it was privatized and government does nothing but harm. 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 08:34:03 pm by russianspy1234 »
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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg534871#msg534871
« Reply #145 on: August 19, 2012, 08:55:46 pm »
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Mitt Romney in a heartbeat. Obama is the second worst president in history behind LBJ. He has driven up the national debt, more people are out of work, he has stalled the recovery with things like Dodd frank and has socialized healthcare with obamacare.

Bush added a far greater percentage to the national debt.  When he took office, we had a budget surplus, and his tax cuts and spending turned that into the biggest budget deficit we've ever had.  The national debt was 10.66 trillion on the day bush left office, so he roughly doubled the debt, and thats only counting his years in office, not the policies like his tax cuts that are continuing to add to the deficit to this day.  The biggest contribution to the debt has been the bush tax cuts, the second has been going to war with nearly every country in the middle east EXCEPT the one that the majority of the people that attacked us were from.  And then there was the fact that Bush never actually counted what the Iraq and Afghanistan war costs, and thus the national debt didn't count them.  Has the national debt increased a lot under Obama? Yes, but, but the vast majority of it has been due to Bush policies, and in fact, had Obama changed absolutely nothing and just continued what Bush was doing, the national debt would be higher.

Secondly, thinking Obamacare socialized healthcare shows a willful ignorance.  Sure, it makes for a nice bumper sticker for your car, but it's not even close to accurate.  First off, there is a big difference between health insurance and health care.  Obamacare passed rules on regulations on how much health insurance companies are allowed to screw you over.  For example, I've almost always had health insurance, occasionally switching to different ones due to work situations.  A little while ago I switched insurances, and a few months after that, I got sick and ended up in the hospital for a week.  Had certain provisions of Obamacare not recently come into effect, my insurance would have been allowed to just drop me, and not only that, they would have been able to tell the hospital that they would cover me, and then refuse to pay after it was all done, so I would have been on the hook to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for treatment I technically could have gone without.  Seriously, health insurance companies used to employ people whose specific job it was to look at claims, and if they were for procedures that were too expensive, go through they're file and find a reason to drop them.  Google rescission, check out some of the stats on what insurance companies did to women who got breast cancer, and tell me that a policy like that should be legal.  What about preexisting conditions?  Should a baby born with a minor heart murmur never be allowed to get insurance?  What about women?  Before Obamacare, in many states, women would have to pay more for the same coverage as men, and even more than that if they've ever been abused.  That's right, being beaten by your spouse is a preexisting condition.  And those are just a few of the egregious policies Obamacare has stopped.

And then, there is the fact that you use "socialism" as if it is objectively bad in every situation.  Here's a fun little passage I like to show people:
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal power utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the Nation Aeronautics and Space Administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After work I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshall's inspection, and which has not plundered all of its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log into the Internet which was developed by the Defense Advance Research Projects Administration and post on freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD and because the government cant do anything right.

I have nothing against limited government. However, too much government destroys wealth. Government run amok is socialism. Once Obamacare is fully implemented going to be a flop. The costs are sky high. Government can not distribute health care efficiently because it does not have to compete. Competition brings prices down. People will end up having to wait months and months even to get crappy care. They can't get private care because they can't afford to pay more taxes. Plus our national debt will rise even higher.

P.S. DARPA didn't create the internet. It may have contributed some to the effort, but it sure as hell didn't create the internet.

Do you even know what socialism or Obamacare are?  Like I said, willful ignorance.  Look up what Obamacare actually does before arguing against it, because it in no way allows the government to distribute healthcare.

the government setting regulations on what people (even corporations) can do is not government run amok.  Before government regulations, tobacco companies were allowed to run ads that said 4 out of 5 doctors recommend smoking a pack of camels a day to live longer.  Cildren's toys were made with led, and buildings were made with asbestos.

Yes the internet probably would have been created eventually without DARPA, it would have taken a lot longer and it wouldn't have been centralized so it would have been a lot worse.  no one is saying the government does anything and everything better than private corporations, just that sometimes you need both. republicans are saying that everything would be better if it was privatized and government does nothing but harm.

"republicans are saying that everything would be better if it was privatized and government does nothing but harm. "

This is a clear strawman argument.  I am not a Republican, but this is a clear misrepresentation of that party. 

Offline russianspy1234

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg534884#msg534884
« Reply #146 on: August 19, 2012, 09:49:42 pm »
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Mitt Romney in a heartbeat. Obama is the second worst president in history behind LBJ. He has driven up the national debt, more people are out of work, he has stalled the recovery with things like Dodd frank and has socialized healthcare with obamacare.

Bush added a far greater percentage to the national debt.  When he took office, we had a budget surplus, and his tax cuts and spending turned that into the biggest budget deficit we've ever had.  The national debt was 10.66 trillion on the day bush left office, so he roughly doubled the debt, and thats only counting his years in office, not the policies like his tax cuts that are continuing to add to the deficit to this day.  The biggest contribution to the debt has been the bush tax cuts, the second has been going to war with nearly every country in the middle east EXCEPT the one that the majority of the people that attacked us were from.  And then there was the fact that Bush never actually counted what the Iraq and Afghanistan war costs, and thus the national debt didn't count them.  Has the national debt increased a lot under Obama? Yes, but, but the vast majority of it has been due to Bush policies, and in fact, had Obama changed absolutely nothing and just continued what Bush was doing, the national debt would be higher.

Secondly, thinking Obamacare socialized healthcare shows a willful ignorance.  Sure, it makes for a nice bumper sticker for your car, but it's not even close to accurate.  First off, there is a big difference between health insurance and health care.  Obamacare passed rules on regulations on how much health insurance companies are allowed to screw you over.  For example, I've almost always had health insurance, occasionally switching to different ones due to work situations.  A little while ago I switched insurances, and a few months after that, I got sick and ended up in the hospital for a week.  Had certain provisions of Obamacare not recently come into effect, my insurance would have been allowed to just drop me, and not only that, they would have been able to tell the hospital that they would cover me, and then refuse to pay after it was all done, so I would have been on the hook to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for treatment I technically could have gone without.  Seriously, health insurance companies used to employ people whose specific job it was to look at claims, and if they were for procedures that were too expensive, go through they're file and find a reason to drop them.  Google rescission, check out some of the stats on what insurance companies did to women who got breast cancer, and tell me that a policy like that should be legal.  What about preexisting conditions?  Should a baby born with a minor heart murmur never be allowed to get insurance?  What about women?  Before Obamacare, in many states, women would have to pay more for the same coverage as men, and even more than that if they've ever been abused.  That's right, being beaten by your spouse is a preexisting condition.  And those are just a few of the egregious policies Obamacare has stopped.

And then, there is the fact that you use "socialism" as if it is objectively bad in every situation.  Here's a fun little passage I like to show people:
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal power utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the Nation Aeronautics and Space Administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After work I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshall's inspection, and which has not plundered all of its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log into the Internet which was developed by the Defense Advance Research Projects Administration and post on freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD and because the government cant do anything right.

I have nothing against limited government. However, too much government destroys wealth. Government run amok is socialism. Once Obamacare is fully implemented going to be a flop. The costs are sky high. Government can not distribute health care efficiently because it does not have to compete. Competition brings prices down. People will end up having to wait months and months even to get crappy care. They can't get private care because they can't afford to pay more taxes. Plus our national debt will rise even higher.

P.S. DARPA didn't create the internet. It may have contributed some to the effort, but it sure as hell didn't create the internet.

Do you even know what socialism or Obamacare are?  Like I said, willful ignorance.  Look up what Obamacare actually does before arguing against it, because it in no way allows the government to distribute healthcare.

the government setting regulations on what people (even corporations) can do is not government run amok.  Before government regulations, tobacco companies were allowed to run ads that said 4 out of 5 doctors recommend smoking a pack of camels a day to live longer.  Cildren's toys were made with led, and buildings were made with asbestos.

Yes the internet probably would have been created eventually without DARPA, it would have taken a lot longer and it wouldn't have been centralized so it would have been a lot worse.  no one is saying the government does anything and everything better than private corporations, just that sometimes you need both. republicans are saying that everything would be better if it was privatized and government does nothing but harm.

"republicans are saying that everything would be better if it was privatized and government does nothing but harm. "

This is a clear strawman argument.  I am not a Republican, but this is a clear misrepresentation of that party.

Yeah I am usually a lot more careful about putting modifiers like "some" in front of sentences like that.  Thing is, with the Norquist pledge pretty much a requirement to run as a republican, it's not far from the truth.  Many republicans have been quoted as saying "government is the problem" or  how the government should be small enough to be drowned in a tub and what not.
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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg535292#msg535292
« Reply #147 on: August 21, 2012, 06:29:50 am »
Bush added a far greater percentage to the national debt. 
Why not compare raw numbers as well as percentages. if the deficit was 1$ and bush increased it to 100000$ then that was a 100000% increase, and if it was then increased to 1000000$ it is only a 10000% increase. Which one was the more irresponsible spending though? Either one on there own are worthless and can be misleading, meanwhile, not even giving numbers/sources just makes me think you are spouting out bullcrap (note Im sure youre not just spouting out lies, Im just trying to point out the importance of facts/sources because otherwise I could easily just spout out random facts and insist people prove me wrong.)

My next point- Is deficit or surplus good? If deficit is good then Bush was smart to bring us into one since Bill clinton did a horrible job managing it. IF its a bad thing, then Bill Clinton did a good job, bush did a bad one, and obama did a worse one. I feel like im oversmplifying this and im sure someone will point it out, but I feel like its a simple point that at the very least, Ill learn something from by pointing it out.
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Offline russianspy1234

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg535367#msg535367
« Reply #148 on: August 21, 2012, 02:09:18 pm »
Bush added a far greater percentage to the national debt. 
Why not compare raw numbers as well as percentages. if the deficit was 1$ and bush increased it to 100000$ then that was a 100000% increase, and if it was then increased to 1000000$ it is only a 10000% increase. Which one was the more irresponsible spending though? Either one on there own are worthless and can be misleading, meanwhile, not even giving numbers/sources just makes me think you are spouting out bullcrap (note Im sure youre not just spouting out lies, Im just trying to point out the importance of facts/sources because otherwise I could easily just spout out random facts and insist people prove me wrong.)

My next point- Is deficit or surplus good? If deficit is good then Bush was smart to bring us into one since Bill clinton did a horrible job managing it. IF its a bad thing, then Bill Clinton did a good job, bush did a bad one, and obama did a worse one. I feel like im oversmplifying this and im sure someone will point it out, but I feel like its a simple point that at the very least, Ill learn something from by pointing it out.

don't use deficit and debt interchangeably.  im still trying to find up to date exact numbers, but for now i will grant that debt has gone up more under obama than it did under bush.  the thing is, the deficit hasn't.  the budget deficit during bush's last year was 1.4 trillion.  it has been holding at around 1.3 trillion during obama, so he has actually decreased the deficit.  still a tremendous deficit to be sure, but the majority of it is from congress refusing to let the bush tax cuts expire.  another large chunk of it is from obama not immediately withdrawing from al of the wars bus started in the middle east.  wars by the way, that bush never put on the books, so the federal debt didn't count them during the years bush was in office, when obama came in, he (or his accountant, w/e) noticed this problem, took count of what it cost, and added it to the national books.

source: http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html
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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg535373#msg535373
« Reply #149 on: August 21, 2012, 02:52:03 pm »
My next point- Is deficit or surplus good? If deficit is good then Bush was smart to bring us into one since Bill clinton did a horrible job managing it. IF its a bad thing, then Bill Clinton did a good job, bush did a bad one, and obama did a worse one. I feel like im oversmplifying this and im sure someone will point it out, but I feel like its a simple point that at the very least, Ill learn something from by pointing it out.
A government account surplus means a private sector deficit (ignoring foreign trade, which is a relatively small part of US GDP). A government deficit is a private sector surplus.

In general, government deficits are necessary because the money supply needs to grow to keep up with population growth and economic development. However, size and context are important. Large deficits during a recession have a stabilizing effect, making the recession shorter and less severe than it would have been. Large deficits during a boom time are unwise; booms are exactly when bubbles and unsustainable growth are dangers. Bush had large deficits during a period of growth. A smaller deficit during that time would have meant less idle money being pumped into the housing bubble. Right now, bubbles are not an imminent danger. A smaller deficit now means more unemployment and a slower recovery.

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg535389#msg535389
« Reply #150 on: August 21, 2012, 04:40:44 pm »
My next point- Is deficit or surplus good? If deficit is good then Bush was smart to bring us into one since Bill clinton did a horrible job managing it. IF its a bad thing, then Bill Clinton did a good job, bush did a bad one, and obama did a worse one. I feel like im oversmplifying this and im sure someone will point it out, but I feel like its a simple point that at the very least, Ill learn something from by pointing it out.
A government account surplus means a private sector deficit (ignoring foreign trade, which is a relatively small part of US GDP). A government deficit is a private sector surplus.

Are you sure about that?  I mean, it's clear there would be a relation, but I doubt it would be 1:1 as you are implying.   Surplus/Deficit are the result of whether the government (or as you are saying the private sector) takes in more than it spends.  The government spending less on defense  would cause our deficit to become a surplus, but wouldn't really affect the private sector in a significant way.
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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg535452#msg535452
« Reply #151 on: August 21, 2012, 08:04:20 pm »
Are you sure about that?  I mean, it's clear there would be a relation, but I doubt it would be 1:1 as you are implying.   Surplus/Deficit are the result of whether the government (or as you are saying the private sector) takes in more than it spends.  The government spending less on defense  would cause our deficit to become a surplus, but wouldn't really affect the private sector in a significant way.
It's an accounting identity. It is true by definition. GDP = C + I + G + X. C (private consumption) and I (private investment) are the domestic private sector. G (government) is the domestic public sector. X (net exports) is the foreign sector. So at any one time, if X is held constant, changes in G must be offset by an opposite change in C+I.

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg535467#msg535467
« Reply #152 on: August 21, 2012, 08:51:05 pm »
Are you sure about that?  I mean, it's clear there would be a relation, but I doubt it would be 1:1 as you are implying.   Surplus/Deficit are the result of whether the government (or as you are saying the private sector) takes in more than it spends.  The government spending less on defense  would cause our deficit to become a surplus, but wouldn't really affect the private sector in a significant way.
It's an accounting identity. It is true by definition. GDP = C + I + G + X. C (private consumption) and I (private investment) are the domestic private sector. G (government) is the domestic public sector. X (net exports) is the foreign sector. So at any one time, if X is held constant, changes in G must be offset by an opposite change in C+I.

That assumes GDP must stay constant. Why must it?
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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg535468#msg535468
« Reply #153 on: August 21, 2012, 08:53:41 pm »
Are you sure about that?  I mean, it's clear there would be a relation, but I doubt it would be 1:1 as you are implying.   Surplus/Deficit are the result of whether the government (or as you are saying the private sector) takes in more than it spends.  The government spending less on defense  would cause our deficit to become a surplus, but wouldn't really affect the private sector in a significant way.
It's an accounting identity. It is true by definition. GDP = C + I + G + X. C (private consumption) and I (private investment) are the domestic private sector. G (government) is the domestic public sector. X (net exports) is the foreign sector. So at any one time, if X is held constant, changes in G must be offset by an opposite change in C+I.
Or a decrease in GDP. What happens when the government lowers spending but does not lower taxation? Since taxation was not lowered, no additional wealth is in the private sector [no increase in C or I]. Spending was lowered [G]. Exports were unaffected. GDP decreases?
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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg535593#msg535593
« Reply #154 on: August 22, 2012, 07:43:21 am »
That assumes GDP must stay constant. Why must it?
As I wrote in my post, the accounting identity describes one point in time. Other things can happen over time. But what I described is simple accounting. When a check is deposited (or more commonly these days, an electronic transaction occurs), there is a transfer from one account to another. When a government agency spends, its bank account is marked down and a private sector account is marked up. When a person or company pays taxes, that private sector account is marked down and the government account marked up. If the transactions do not balance, there is either a banking error or a theft.

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg535594#msg535594
« Reply #155 on: August 22, 2012, 07:45:30 am »
Or a decrease in GDP. What happens when the government lowers spending but does not lower taxation? Since taxation was not lowered, no additional wealth is in the private sector [no increase in C or I]. Spending was lowered [G]. Exports were unaffected. GDP decreases?
Yes, you're right. It's a point I have made myself at other times.

 

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