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Offline russianspy1234

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg437476#msg437476
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2011, 03:24:57 pm »
I would say that is a problem with our two party primary system. We let the extremes pick out the candidates first and then in the general election its generally a choice between the lesser of two evils. Its very difficult to be in politics outside of the party system, that means politicians are generally going to be forced to heed party lines, and when they dont they get punished by the extremes that rule the primaries.
if that were the case, why were none of the mainstream democratic candidates from the last few elections extreme liberals?  most of them would feel right at home in the rebulican party 12 years ago.
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Offline darkrobe

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg437508#msg437508
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2011, 04:40:11 pm »
I would say that that is because certain conservative media outlets has succesfully redefined what is the "center" in america. Ten or 15 years ago the Republican party was more liberal than it is today. (see newt gingrich coming up with health care mandate in the 90s).

By the current definition of what is the "center" (aka pretty far to the right of center), All the mainstream democratic candidates from the last election were "extreme" liberals. That is a problem with how we define the center in america right now, but it doesnt take away from my point that the primary process encourages the picking of extreme candidates.

By way of picture
10 years ago:

Left---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Right
Extreme Liberal^    ^center^    ^Extreme Conservative

Now:
Left---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Right
                  Extreme Liberal^    ^center^    ^Extreme Conservative

Thats why people who used to be in the category of centrist or mainstream, are now considered extreme liberals, even if they haven't changed their actual policy positions.

I voted for Obama cause I considered him mainstream, not because i am liberal. since hes been elected though, the definition mainstream has changed, so that now it appears like he is an extreme liberal, even though many of his policy positions would have been considered conservative (see war on terror, guantanamo bay, tax cuts, etc) only a few years ago.


Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg438025#msg438025
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2011, 10:55:46 pm »
The very definitions of Conversative and Liberal have changed, at one time it meant how a person read the constitution.  Conservative meant literal interpretation, versus Liberal meant conceptual interpretation.  I think, this changed past the whole Greenback's (or paper money) debate.  Prior to that, I am not certain. 

Today though...  today's political-land scape makes me sick, as in I almost throw up if I start thinking too hard about it. 

I'm going to admit one thing here, on this rarely viewed message board with the realative anonyminity that exists on such things:
I've done a lot in my life,  I've been a cook, salesman, housekeeper, soldier, a manager, an inventor, and an engineer.  I am father, son, brother, and husband.  I've made and lost a lot of money.  I've lived well and have been homeless.  I've had to defend my life, and I have done so without taking another's.   I've been called up in scenerios where with in a few minutes something horrible that will take hundreds, thousands, and sometimes in the tens of thousands of lives and what I know and say is what is standing between preventing the crisis, and then told thanks by voice on the otherside of the phone and slip back unnoticed again.  I look to the newspapers to see if anything was posted, sometimes their is, rarely though and I wonder how many potential incidents around the world had just that past day were prevented and never mentioned again.  At first I took an ego to it, I SAVED THE WORLD, then after a while, it became those ungrateful son's of bitches, what if I wasn't here, then I realized, their is almost always someone their, otherwise every day humanity would be falling apart.  If I didn't answer, someone else would. 

Few things truelly scare me, but one thing does and that is as I've learned and experienced more, I have realized their is a small collective of people who control everything, but it's not an illuminati that is all knowing, instead it's driven by people's greed and they do giant experiments of exercising control of society, humanity, and and every so many generations it reaches a peak before the system comes down.   I fear for the future.  Perhaps, this is the point all older people get to, they eventually gain enough information and knowledge about the comings and goings of people, we see what previous generations have created, become afraid of it, attempt to fix it, but ultimately find ourselves unable to fix humanity as a whole.  I hope that is it, me getting old, and not some WWIII.

Offline Belthus

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg447984#msg447984
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2012, 05:33:12 pm »
Here is an interesting survey tidbit:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

It's not surprising that Romney is considered acceptable among moderate Republicans. What is noteworthy is that most conservative Republicans now also find him acceptable.

Offline UTAlan

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg447988#msg447988
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2012, 05:41:51 pm »
It's not surprising that Romney is considered acceptable among moderate Republicans. What is noteworthy is that most conservative Republicans now also find him acceptable.
Not me.

Offline Belthus

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg448046#msg448046
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2012, 09:23:20 pm »
It's not surprising that Romney is considered acceptable among moderate Republicans. What is noteworthy is that most conservative Republicans now also find him acceptable.
Not me.
If Romney is nominated, what will you do with your vote? Not vote for President? The Constitution Party?

Offline UTAlan

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg448052#msg448052
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2012, 09:42:56 pm »
I don't know, nor do I need to know at this time. I am voting for Ron Paul in the primaries and will figure out who to vote for in the election based on what the candidates are at that time.

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg448061#msg448061
« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2012, 10:10:24 pm »
I don't know, nor do I need to know at this time. I am voting for Ron Paul in the primaries and will figure out who to vote for in the election based on what the candidates are at that time.
The libertarian party usually has a nominee that is similar to Ron Paul. As such it might be worth considering along the other options if Ron Paul does not get nominated. Hopefully he does get the nomination.
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Offline nerd1Topic starter

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg448065#msg448065
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2012, 10:15:41 pm »
It never ceases to amaze me how this community can have a calm, reasonable discussion about politics without resorting to name calling. keep it up elements!  :)
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Offline UTAlan

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg448066#msg448066
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2012, 10:16:11 pm »
The libertarian party usually has a nominee that is similar to Ron Paul. As such it might be worth considering along the other options if Ron Paul does not get nominated. Hopefully he does get the nomination.
Yeah, if he doesn't get the nomination, I'm going to have to  decide between voting for a Republican candidate I don't like (which is basically just voting against Obama), or voting 3rd Party (which is basically, in my eyes, rendering my vote useless). Hopefully, as you said, it won't come to that.

Offline Belthus

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg448111#msg448111
« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2012, 12:12:40 am »
Yeah, if he doesn't get the nomination, I'm going to have to  decide between voting for a Republican candidate I don't like (which is basically just voting against Obama), or voting 3rd Party (which is basically, in my eyes, rendering my vote useless). Hopefully, as you said, it won't come to that.
Your vote is one vote, regardless of where it goes. Unless the election is decided by one vote, your vote will not make a difference. Voting for the winner by a hundred thousand votes is just as "wasted" as voting for a losing candidate. So I figure, if the race is close in your state, vote for the lesser of the two major party evils. If the race in your state is not competitive, you can vote with your heart.

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg448119#msg448119
« Reply #83 on: January 12, 2012, 12:32:44 am »
True. In Texas, the Republican nominee is pretty much guaranteed the Electoral votes.

 

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