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Offline BluePriest

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg434179#msg434179
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2011, 02:30:06 am »
So someone who is a notorious flip-flopper vs someone who can't keep his issues straight? Why do republicans bother sticking with the party? There are other right wing alternatives; Constitution Party and Modern Whig come to mind and they're at least consistent.
Comes down to this for both sides every election.

I think Gingrich lucked out. At this point, I unless it is an extremely major scandal, I believe it will be overlooked by near everyone. Too many scandals have busted out, and people are tired of them, especially since none of the Herman Cain accusers have any proof. I was enough to cast doubt on him, but also enough to make people take any further accusations to other candidates with a grain of salt unless hard evidence is provided
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Offline darkrobe

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg434180#msg434180
« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2011, 02:45:27 am »
I dont really understand the strength of gingrich in this race. It makes no sense. he has the weakness of all the other candidates combined. Hes not tough on imigration (which sunk perry), hes was an original source of the health care individual mandate (healthcare is romneys weakness), He has had marrital and woman issues galore (which is currently sinking cain). I mean, what exactly is his strength as a candidate?

Offline darkrobe

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg434500#msg434500
« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2011, 07:01:57 pm »
Well Cain is out.... Guess mit romney really is the candidate? that seems rather anti-climactic.

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg434518#msg434518
« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2011, 07:46:26 pm »
Comes down to this for both sides every election.
No it doesn't, but I wouldn't expect someone who is conservative to actually pay attention to politics.

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg434537#msg434537
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2011, 08:29:33 pm »
No it doesn't, but I wouldn't expect someone who is conservative to actually pay attention to politics.
That kind of comment seems unnecessary as we attempt to have a civilized discussion about the Election.

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg434955#msg434955
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2011, 11:30:33 pm »
You can't have a civilized discussion with conservatives since they literally believe in regressive policy making that will destroy the country.

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg435009#msg435009
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2011, 01:39:56 am »
You can't have a civilized discussion with conservatives since they literally believe in regressive policy making that will destroy the country.
Distopia exists in more than one direction.
Liberals move us away from past distopian aspects. (Slavery)
Conservatives try to prevent adding new distopian aspects. (Big Brother)
Corrupt individuals bathe in the exploitation of distopian aspects.

Please consider your own bias before you irrationally censor a group of people.
My stance: Create and protect freedom. The Progressive and Regressive political movements are both threats to freedom some of the time.

PS: Conservative-Liberal is perpendicular to Progressive-Regressive
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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg436193#msg436193
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2011, 05:10:34 am »
Why the hell am I posting about politics, eh, I'm bored...

To the down to Gingrich and Romney portion of this thead: Belthus is pretty much on the money
The Republican base has been switching between various anyone-but-Romney candidates.
Exactly, because, Romney does not represent a good victory for them.  He is a Mormon which alienates hardcore christian conservatives and can alienate up to 70% of the populous.  The Mormon Church also scares a lot of people who know how it operates and does not want to see it gain more power through Mitt, and this bothers of a lot of those who have a Corporatism agenda.  Also Mitt, a more traditionally modern liberalism view point, and so comes across as a flip-flopper which does not help him with the Tea Party portion of the Republican party.  As far as getting people from the left to sign on, at first it sounds good, but then his silver spoon background quickly dissolves that thought.

So what about Bachmann?
Bachmann was put up by certain Fox executives who were looking to front a candidate.  They thought she could pander to the Tea Party.  Which she does, and that's about it.  Which makes her fall real flat.

What about Perry?
Perry rose out of the collective ashes of Bachmann and the many other candidates who were 'Tea Party' style candidates...  the problem with all of them is the problem Perry hit.  They all operate on their convictions and feelings but once presented with needing to know the actual comings and goings of the government they are made fools of.  Which, ultimately is what Romney did to him in the debates.

What about Cain?
Cain's pedigree was different, it was from the business centric portion of the Republican party, and so was a strong candidate.  He talked simple, had simple plans, all sounds good.  Except, he had a messy background as many executives have.  It was not the existing scandals that brought him down, it was the future scandals we won't know about.  But he said, "Their could be an infinite [I think he meant untold] number of these types of accusations coming out.  Which is why he was now reconsidering."   Politicians get defamed daily, they only start running scared when someone comes close to the truth and it's enough to ruin something very important to them.

So we have Gingrich?
Well not really, twice his campaign has already blown up.  He's got two things, he is known as one of the key visionaries behind modern conservatism and all of his scandals are known of so nothing new there.  The problem is as darkrobe pointed out, he has all the weakness of all the other candidates.  Which is why is campaign has already blown up twice.  I think we are just waiting on the third and final time.

So is this it, Romney the eventuality?
Not really, there is one candidate doing better than Romney that isn't Gingrich, he's won the CPAC poll every year since Obama came to office, he has consistently been one of the top 3 in every straw poll this campaign season.  However,  the media will not speak his name, and nearly everyone will say, he's not viable.  Maybe he is not, but that person is Ron Paul.  Only a couple problems with Ron Paul, he's old, he's old school conservative to the point of near anarchy, and he has true strength in his convictions where he is not very bribe-able.

Does it matter, honestly, against Obama, either of the three have about the same chance against Obama.  Obama, has shown to be better at the terrorist warfare thing than the Republicans which is a bit of a shock.  Has good international policies.  However, locally here, lost a lot of democratic support for failing to capture the brief moment he had with Congress to really push their agenda, instead of socialized medicine we got subsidized insurance companies, and instead of legalized pot, we got a harder crack down, his hand got forced on gay marriage and gay's in the military, but he wasn't pushing that, he even backed RIAA policies.   Finally, to add insult, has only strengthened the laws and policies that were put in place by Bush Jr.  In other words he makes a better Republican than most Republicans.  Honestly, I don't understand the Republican fight against him,  and when they do it always threatens the economy in very bad ways on things that as he would put it "Why? That is part of their job, they won't even do that?" 

So what's it down to, The Republican Acting Democrat versus a Mormon/Anarchist/or Drunk.  The vote will come down to how much have the Democrats become disillusioned with Obama.

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg436208#msg436208
« Reply #68 on: December 08, 2011, 06:08:08 am »
+rep for a balanced post comparing and contrasting all the candidates' pros and cons (relatively) objectively, and on the internet no less. xD

Offline mesaprotector

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg437295#msg437295
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2011, 05:41:34 am »
The one thing that drives me nuts is when the Republican candidates accuse each other of not being "true conservatives", whatever that means. (Similarly, the Democrats who complain about Obama not being liberal enough.) It gives the impression not agreeing with the official party platform on every issue is practically a sin. The vast majority of people don't conform exactly to either set of beliefs, so why can't a candidate run as a centrist... or as having some completely different ideology?

@KeeperofDreams: I like your analysis, it's very clear and concise and explained a few things I wasn't sure about.
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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg437307#msg437307
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2011, 05:57:31 am »
The one thing that drives me nuts is when the Republican candidates accuse each other of not being "true conservatives", whatever that means. (Similarly, the Democrats who complain about Obama not being liberal enough.) It gives the impression not agreeing with the official party platform on every issue is practically a sin.
To modern Republicans, it is a sin.

Quote
The vast majority of people don't conform exactly to either set of beliefs, so why can't a candidate run as a centrist... or as having some completely different ideology?
A candidate can differ from the ideology of voters, but he/she has no right to be guaranteed election. Voters naturally want to vote for a candidate who agrees with them on as much as possible. If they have ten policy positions, they would prefer a candidate who agrees on ten policy positions over a candidate who agrees on only nine policy positions.

Offline darkrobe

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Re: election 2012 https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32197.msg437309#msg437309
« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2011, 06:00:49 am »
I would say that is a problem with our two party primary system. We let the extremes pick out the candidates first and then in the general election its generally a choice between the lesser of two evils. Its very difficult to be in politics outside of the party system, that means politicians are generally going to be forced to heed party lines, and when they dont they get punished by the extremes that rule the primaries.

 

blarg: