communism. is it really so evil?

[tyranim]

ive come to understand that people ignorantly hate communism and brandish it with an idea of being evil, when in reality, communism will actually be the best form of government were it not for unethical people. i guess what im saying is, communism isn't evil, the people who take advantage of and abuse the equality are. debate away

[Reasoner]

communism isent evil really, but theres flaws in it. no countrys can perfect communism, and they are "enemys" of usa, and well, i dont hate communism, if it can be perfected, fine, but i dont see that really happening.

[-Phiryos-]

Utopia.

Only the smurfs ever managed do it without gulag, LoL.

[Zig]

I don't know that it's such a scathing denunciation of communism to say that it failed in the past, or even to point out the fact that it requires a great deal of imprisonment and social control.  Quite the contrary, I contend this is a feature of government itself.  I ask you to consider the USA, a nation that is purportedly capitalist, and a 'free' state, yet this country houses 1/4 of all the worlds prisoners in its domestic prison system.

The purely economic institutions of the US are not as efficacious as the traditional argument would seem to have us assume they are.  Take for example the great depression, or easier to relate, the current recession.  The byproduct of a capitalist society is a wealthy and often-if-not-always corrupt elite with an underprivileged class maintained through judicious use of police powers.  When pointing at the collapse of the USSR, do remember to point directly at the military spending that was its cause.  Military spending in response to US spending which was only possible through the institutionalization of massive debt to future generations.  Admittedly the communist country fell quicker, but let us not tout the benefits of a system which holds as one chief virtue the passing along of suffering to citizens yet to come.

To your specific point unit748596:  If you're going to use terms that are ambiguous, please define them.  I do not know what you mean by 'evil' nor do I understand the meaning of 'best' as it relates to a form of government.  perhaps you could enlighten us with some criteria by which we are to judge governments?

[TheMadEvil]

What the poster is saying is that most people equate Communism with its most flagrant upholder: Russia. Most Americans look at the worst stages of governments (a la Chairman Mao, Mussolini, Stalin, Hitler, etc.) as the only form of that government. That is what he means by saying that they are seen as 'Evil', since most people would say that these specific governments were Evil, making the government types themselves inherently evil...the power of ignorance en masse.

The problem with governments, however, isn't the government itself. Each type of government works beautifully on paper, and is perfect for its own reasons and needs. Communism and Socialism are two of the most perfect government types, but could never work out on a full scale the way a Republic or Democracy works. The problem? It goes right with this game - Elements...Human Elements. The human element is what essentially dooms any governmental system, with things such as greed, power, lust, corruption, etc. On small scales, any government type could possibly succeed, all that is needed is the coming together of the populace to a shared vision. On large scales, however, there is no shared vision, as everyone has their own wants, needs, and ideas. People are inherently too different for governments to be perfect, as not everyone can be pleased by everything that is done.

[Essence]

Props to TheMadEvil for a well-reasoned and well-stated post that happens to agree completely with my ideas on the matter.

Or: +Karma...for being right.

[TheMadEvil]

wow, me'sa right? tanks!

[coinich]

I'm not even sure if I would ever support Communism even if there was a good or right way to get there.

[TheDarkAzura]

On paper, communism is a really good type of government. Still, people are always gonna try to get more than the other, which will break everything. Communism cannot work in a large amount of people. Communism is a Utopist type of government...

[Boingo]

I don't know that it's such a scathing denunciation of communism to say that it failed in the past

Let's be clear here--this has not been a one-time failure.  It has failed each and every time it has been instituted.  Of course, by failure, I mean it does nothing to raise the standard of the "disenfranchised" which it is supposed to be its strength.  Each and every time it has been attempted, it results in the criminalization of dissent. 

The ongoing communist experiments include Cuba and China which are the shining examples of where you would be literally risking your life if you chose to speak out against the government.   China is sometimes portrayed as a success story because of its tremendous economic boom.  However, what goes unsaid is that it leads the world in executions it actually reports, which is more than the combined total of any 10 other nations combined.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/death-penalty/death-sentences-and-executions-in-2009

Does this mean that communism is inherently evil?  Not necessarily.  However, until you can correct the flaws in the human character, it'll never work any better.

[airframe]

@boinko, you're generally right, good post. But Im not sure China can be considered a communistic country anymore. Amazing ecomonic growth is a combination of capitalism and cheap labour.

[Essence]

Just as a side-note: capitalism isn't actually working out any better, at least in America.  Americans live in a country where multinational corporations have silently slipped their former CEOs and board members into the highest-ranking positions of the government agencies that are supposed to oversee those companies -- which means that the entire notion of government oversight is a joke.

This is most obvious in the banking and real estate industries, because they've recently collapsed -- but it's at it's most dangerous in the FOOD industry, where the corporate/government mashup is, in truth, the ONLY cause of the American health-care crisis.  The things they call "food" in America are literally poisonous crimes of nature, and it's killing us. 

[edit]In fact, my wife just found a very telling article: apparently the health and life insurance industries own massive piles of stock (http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/AJPH.2009.178020v1) in the fast food industry.  Surprise, surprise.  [/edit]

I'd stake everything I own on the fact that it's killing us a damn sight faster than the Chinese government is killing dissenters.


That, my friends, is the human element failing capitalism.  Sometimes I think I'd be better off in China.