Abortion: Why so serious?

[Demagog]

Just to clarify, I wasn't attacking your personality. I'm pro life but I don't think an early abortion (first 6-7 weeks) is as bad as one halfway through term.
The unborn child of a rape-victim may not be life threatening but it can certainly be life wrecking. I'm just trying to say that moral issues can become blurred for those affected by such terrible things.

I know you weren't attacking my personality lol... I just wanted to state where I was coming from.

And what is "life wrecking?" That's something that makes no sense to me. Then again, I'm an extreme optimist. The way I see it, you should be glad for everything that has happened to you, not only because you only get to spend eighty years or so on earth, but also because for all you know, if that didn't happen, you could be dead. It's better to be alive than dead lol... And by "you," I mean people in general, not you specifically. And that optimistic viewpoint doesn't work well if a person made some really bad choices and now someone is stabbing them to death :-p In that case, ya, those choices are probably something to regret lol... but right before the person knew they would be stabbed to death, they shouldn't regret them :-p

At CB!, I just did a project on Argentina for a class I'm taking. I read about this nineteen year old girl that was raped and became pregnant. She tried to self-abort several times but never succeeded. Then, when the baby was born, she killed it. She got fourteen years in prison. The guy that raped her got three. Kind of interesting, I guess...

[Boingo]

Perhaps one of the more tragic stories I've read recently.  The ironic thing is the doctor killed one of the twins and lost his license for it. If he killed the other one, we'd never have even heard about it....

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/04/11/1573598/sarasota-doctor-revoked-for-aborting.html

[Jaxly]

I can understand your sentiment, but to be honest, Demagog has a much more cohesive stance.  Your position is unenviable as it forces you to defend some arbitrary number of weeks (why not 5 weeks or 8 weeks?) when the act of elective abortion supposedly goes from something ordinary to something to be condemned.  Demagog simply has to assert the unborn is alive and thus should be treated with the respect we afford every other human life.  Food for thought anyway.

I appreciate all the (serious) contributions to the thread so far!

Sorry, I did have a post that, after reviewing it again, did seem unnecessarily disrespectful. It has been edited. However it was meant as a serious post and some of the questions you posed on my viewpoint are answered in it.

I believe that the moment of conferral of the "right to live" comes at the moment of development of the self preservation instinct. Pain and fear are stimuli that fuel this instinct and cause it to awaken, to tie into the previous post.

In other words; We have no right to kill something if it does not want to die

Abortions should be time limited. There is a moment where the right to live is conferred to every human being.
That moment does not take place outside the womb.

Folowing that logic, the moment an embryo shows any evidence of self-awareness in any form, it should have the right to live conferred upon it. This was taken to extremes by the example of the puppy and the [plant]. Current research indicates self awareness can start as eary as 7-8 weeks and I just thought an extra week would be a prudent measure to take. I really think a lot more research needs to be done into this.

I know you weren't attacking my personality lol... I just wanted to state where I was coming from.

And what is "life wrecking?" That's something that makes no sense to me. Then again, I'm an extreme optimist. The way I see it, you should be glad for everything that has happened to you, not only because you only get to spend eighty years or so on earth, but also because for all you know, if that didn't happen, you could be dead. It's better to be alive than dead lol... And by "you," I mean people in general, not you specifically. And that optimistic viewpoint doesn't work well if a person made some really bad choices and now someone is stabbing them to death :-p In that case, ya, those choices are probably something to regret lol... but right before the person knew they would be stabbed to death, they shouldn't regret them :-p

There's huge amounts of documentation of the psychological effects of being raped. Trust could be an issue for the rest of your life. In realation to a pregnancy due to rape, it is very possible that you would associate being pregnant with something abhorrent  and would never be able again to have children. It could change the way people treat you and would almost certainly change how you percieve the way people treat you. Life events like these can remain with a person for a long time. People may grow to blame a single terrible experience for all future bad experiences, allowing the original event to gain weight in their minds and increase to become the root of all evil in their lives. An optimist may be able to overcome it, but few people have that strong a sense of faith in life.

Perhaps one of the more tragic stories I've read recently.  The ironic thing is the doctor killed one of the twins and lost his license for it. If he killed the other one, we'd never have even heard about it....

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/04/11/1573598/sarasota-doctor-revoked-for-aborting.html

That's just incredible.. Thank you for the link. Somone raised a very interesting question on the site;


Replying to mung (04/11/2010 11:41:33 AM):
"The pro-life pep rally is a little miscalculated here. Consider:

1) The pregnancy happened in a test tube.
2) The egg was from a different mother.":

It happened in a test tube... what dofference does that make? The end result is the same right? The parents went into this wanting to concieve a child. And if the egg is from a different mother then technically the fetus wasn't a part of her body so it could be considered murder. If the whole argument is that a woman has a choice because it's the womans body if she is using something that was created outside her body and from a part that is not her she could be convicted of murder. Right?

"Food for thought" to coin a good expression

[Essence]

My problem with the whole abortion question is that, in my experience, the only people who firmly support it also firmly support the rights of full-grown adults to kill themselves (by being soldiers) or get killed by the government (capital punishment).  That seems massively hypocritical to me.

I can totally understand someone who is all about pro-life and is also into diminishing the size and role of the military and also outlawing criminal punishment.  Consistency is the name of the game.
 
Personally, I believe in reincarnation, so as far as I'm concerned, an abortion is simply a short delay in the coming-to-life process. No biggie.  It's much worse to kill someone who is in the middle of a full life than it is to kill a fetus.

[Planplan]

My problem with the whole abortion question is that, in my experience, the only people who firmly support it also firmly support the rights of full-grown adults to kill themselves (by being soldiers) or get killed by the government (capital punishment).  That seems massively hypocritical to me.

I don't like generality, but I have to agree. I would like to know opinions on this for anyone, pro or not, and even the religion. Like you said, your belief, religious or not, can greatly affect your point of the question.

For my part, I'm a total atheist, maybe a bit "anti-religious" (I still respect other's belief). I'm also against "legal kills" that death sentences are. Luckily this doesn't exist anymore in my country. And I'm for the right for the woman to abort if she want. You have 12 weeks of pregnancy (or something like 14 weeks since the sexual relation) to do it in France. The sooner the better for everybody.

You talk a lot of the exceptions, the rapes and such... But the majority just don't want their baby for other reasons. And it's not an easy decision, even if you don't want the baby.

[CB!]

(capital punishment)

Oh man, don't bring capital punishment up here, too... lol

[BluePriest]

Pro-Life in all circumstances. That is my personal belief for me. however, in a debate I would never take that stance. This is my stance for this conversation.

Choice If and ONLY IF
1)Rape
2)The parents life is at stake.

Aside from that, theres not a good reason to have an abortion aside from wanting to try to cover up your mistakes.

A baby can survive outside of the womb at 21 weeks. It can feel pain by 20 weeks.
If you are pro choice, you can not be an animal rights activist. Because if the baby is not human, it is still some type of animal. Why fight for a dog, if you wont fight for the baby, even if you dont consider it human. That just doesnt make any sense.

You're right, it is nearly impossible to make this comparison. The man has developed higher emotions and bonds where the fetus has but instincts. In terms of "value" the man is worth more. A terrible thing to say but true none the less.

I disagree with this logic. Heres why.
Lets take stocks for an example.
Stock 1 is worth 1 dollar
Stock 2 is worth 50 dollars
Which has more worth?
Looks like stock 2 does, doesnt it?
However. The next day, you come back and look at the stocks again.
Stock 1 is now worth 100 dollars,
Stock 2 is worth 25 dollars.

You dont know the future. If I knew stock 1 was going to jump That much, then when I first looked at it, I would have chosen that 1 right away, because to me, it would be a better investment.

Same thing applies here. For all you know, the 45 year old is about to turn into a hitler fanatic, and try to follow in his footsteps, and the fetus would find a cure for cancer.

[CB!]

A friend of mine had about a pro-life commercial.  It essentially told the story of a man's life backwards flashing clips from different points in his life.  Bouncing his grandkids on his knee, renewing wedding vows at a 25th anniversary, holding his first child, getting married, graduating high school, learning to ride a bike, all the way back to his mom in an abortion clinic wrestling with the decision.

Pretty good, I thought...

[Boingo]

My problem with the whole abortion question is that, in my experience, the only people who firmly support it also firmly support the rights of full-grown adults to kill themselves (by being soldiers) or get killed by the government (capital punishment).  That seems massively hypocritical to me.

I can totally understand someone who is all about pro-life and is also into diminishing the size and role of the military and also outlawing criminal punishment.  Consistency is the name of the game.

In the US (speaking in generalities here) the liberal fanatics want abortions for anyone but no death penalty no matter what.  The conservative fanatics want no abortions no matter what but death penalty for anyone who looks at you funny.

Oh man, don't bring capital punishment up here, too... lol

^^This.

If the whole argument is that a woman has a choice because it's the womans body if she is using something that was created outside her body and from a part that is not her she could be convicted of murder. Right?

Well, to be technical, the fetus is NOT part of her body.  That whole placenta thing keeps the baby separate from the mother since they have different DNA.  They have different blood supplies and different immune systems.  Otherwise, the mother's immune system would recognize the baby as a foreigner and kill it.  So the mother isn't just deciding about what to do with her body but also what to do with another.   That's the thing that irritates me about the term "pro-choice" since the baby doesn't really have a vote in that choice.

[bojengles77]

Let's take the "history matters" approach here...

babies that met insufficient standards in Sparta were left in the wild to be eaten by creatures and everyone was totally cool with it. why can't we be more like Sparta? Spartans rule

[BluePriest]

My problem with the whole abortion question is that, in my experience, the only people who firmly support it also firmly support the rights of full-grown adults to kill themselves (by being soldiers) or get killed by the government (capital punishment).  That seems massively hypocritical to me.

Lets look at the flaws in this logic (which really surprise me because I generally love reading your comments, btw, your sig rocks!)

the rights of full-grown adults to kill themselves (by being soldiers)

What you are doing in this situation
1)They are making as choice that effects themselves.
2)You dont KNOW you are going to die. Most come home alive (on the winning side anyways )
3)You are (on the side considered "good" by history) doing something for the greater good.

What you are doing in the abortion situation
1)Making a choice on something/someone elses behalf (the fetus/baby, however you look at it)
2)The Man in the relationship isnt considered. Soley up to the guy.
3)There is no greater good, and the majority of time people are having an abortion because of an inconvenice.

The 2 situations arent the same at all.

or get killed by the government (capital punishment).

1)They are killed because of something they did.
2)Either that or jail for life. Mine as well just die and get it over with if you will have no freedom.

So why do pro choicers lots of times think that capital punishment should be allowed? Because, they believe that people should have to deal with the consequences of thier actions. What do you think is going to happen if you kill 15 people? You can just walk away?

Dont mistake this as me trying to say capital punishment is ok, this isnt about capital punishment. This is about how it is not hypocritical.They actually go along pretty good.

 

[CB!]

So why do pro choicers lots of times think that capital punishment should be allowed? Because, they believe that people should have to deal with the consequences of thier actions. What do you think is going to happen if you kill 15 people? You can just walk away?

Dont mistake this as me trying to say capital punishment is ok, this isnt about capital punishment. This is about how it is not hypocritical.They actually go along pretty good.

My thoughts exactly.  Although I'm for capital punishment (here I go, and I'm the one that said not to bring it up in here, lol).  That's not to say that the system is perfect, but a person that can rape and murder another person should be shot and dumped with the rest of the garbage, IMO.