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PuppyChow

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Re: Abortion: Why so serious? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5380.msg54527#msg54527
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2010, 12:48:19 am »
I'm neither. I'm vehemently against abortions, but I'm pro choice.

Here's the facts: We don't know what a fetus feels. At what point do we say it can feel pain? At what point is it alive? This is purely a question of beliefs, not facts.

Since it's a question of what you believe, that answer is something that should be decided between you, your doctor, and your religion. Government, or anything else, should have no say in the matter.

To quote Voltaire: "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."


Offline Kuroaitou

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Re: !!!UPDATE!!! https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5380.msg54532#msg54532
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2010, 12:55:46 am »
wow this has gone pretty far in the past, hmmmm.... maybe 6 hours? well just an update, running a poll up top for 31 days try to answer before it ends K?   :D

Thanks!
~Collin Beyer
legendary, as much as I think that the poll could be useful, putting ONLY two-options (Pro-Abortion/Pro-Life) could potentially separate other people who fit in the other categories, so you should put in one more to avoid having such a biased question; to me, it's the equivalent of "Are you male or female?" - you need to have an option ("Decline to State/Unsure/N|A/Other") for some people to avoid being categorized and or feel like they're being pushed to a side.


On that note, if a mother is going to risk her own life to try to give birth to a child that is either: a) already dead, or b) will die during the delivery process, despite what the doctors' warnings, then by all means, go ahead. That's technically a Pro-choice decision right there on her part; even though the consequences could be fatal, it was her decision to kill herself, regardless of the circumstances.


...now, if her husband was forcing or coercing her to have the baby despite the risks, then that's a problem. That part should not be legalized (only the mother should have the choice in an emergency (assuming she's conscious), and no one else).



EDIT: Also, what PuppyChow said. ^^;

DOUBLE EDIT: Reread the poll again... and I couldn't believe you put PRO-ABORTION on there instead of 'Pro-Choice'. >.< That's a really horrible divide there!

MrSexington

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Re: Abortion: Why so serious? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5380.msg54534#msg54534
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2010, 01:00:21 am »
I've been hearing on the news all this crud about "baby murder"? I mean seriously why is it murder to have an abortion? Second of all, what the heck caused people to kill doctors who do abortions!?!  :o It's their job to do abortions and it's NOT MURDER!  >:D I would be 100% Pro-life if you could tell me where all the unwanted babies are going to go, how we'll take care of the average (rounded) 19000 babies born every single day*.

~Collin Beyer
Oh, boy.  Where to start.  I'll keep it short or I'll go on forever.

What makes you say it's not murder?  What is your definition of murder?  What is your definition of a baby?  What is your definition of life?

Sorry, but you sound very ignorant.

For the record, I'm pro-abortion, but I'm not kidding myself.  Whenever an abortion is performed a life is destroyed.

 :-\

Offline Glitch

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Re: Abortion: Why so serious? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5380.msg54574#msg54574
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2010, 03:48:03 am »
Would you please revise the poll so that the second option is "pro-choice"?  Thank you.

Offline Demagog

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Re: Abortion: Why so serious? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5380.msg54609#msg54609
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2010, 05:23:35 am »
Pro-life and pro-abortion are too broad.

If you want an honest answer from me, add an anti-death category.

Offline Boingo

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Re: Abortion: Why so serious? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5380.msg54633#msg54633
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2010, 06:52:41 am »
im pro abortion. simply for the fact that there is such a thing as over population. it happens all the time in the animal kingdom. lion cubs are left to die when the food is scarce. its common, very common. besides, do we really need more humans? we are a vial enough species as it is. i see no reason to make more of us. (all of this is my opinion, and shouldnt be taken as an isult to anyone)
Another sucker buys into the "overpopulation" myth.  Next up:  the sky really is falling.

Check out this short video:


And let's not kid ourselves that the vast majority of abortions are performed for reasons other than convenience.  The abortions performed for cases of rape, incest and health of the mother are a fraction of a percent.  When you talk about population control, consider that in the United States legalized abortion is perhaps the most racist policy that exists: roughly 50% of all African American pregnancies end in abortion (which is at least 5 times as high as the rate of white pregnancies.)   How is this anything other than a veritable genocide?  I find the support for abortion on the grounds of population control perhaps the most repugnant argument of all.
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Offline pepokish

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Re: Abortion: Why so serious? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5380.msg54640#msg54640
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2010, 07:33:13 am »
Another sucker buys into the "overpopulation" myth.  Next up:  the sky really is falling.

Check out this short video:

I didn't want to get into this discussion, but I'd like to point out that this so called "debunking of the overpopulation myth" misses a very important fact.  Even if the entire world population could live in the state of Texas, the amount of land needed to support that population would not.  People worrying about overpopulation are not worrying about whether there is enough room to fit another "house with a yard", they are worrying about the amount of environmental destruction needed to support just one more human being.  Farming, deforestation, pollution, factories, land fills.

I suggest watching National Geographic's "The Human Footprint" (
&feature=fvst), to better understand what I mean. 


As for the original point of discussion, my opinion is perfectly in line with PuppyChow.  I am personally against abortion (as in, I would never have one myself), but I wholeheartedly agree that the option should be available.

Offline Boingo

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Re: Abortion: Why so serious? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5380.msg54728#msg54728
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2010, 02:15:33 pm »
I am personally against abortion (as in, I would never have one myself), but I wholeheartedly agree that the option should be available.
I've seen the bumper sticker: "If you're against abortion, don't have one."

The problem is it still allows for treating human life as property, or put another way, allows for treating a somebody as a nobody/nothing.  It's the same principle that underlies why most societies consider acts like like rape, forced prostitution, and slavery to be abhorrent.  Those acts are not consistent with the notion that human life has intrinsic value, or that every human life should be treated with dignity or respect.

Imagine this bumper sticker:  "If you're against slavery, don't own one."  Doesn't that sound silly or just missing the point?  If so, how is it any different than elective abortion?
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Jaxly

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Re: Abortion: Why so serious? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5380.msg54730#msg54730
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2010, 02:18:37 pm »
Mistakes? No, I was aiming at essential values. (Ethically) educated individuals would, in a perfect world, value life so much, that discussions supporting abortion would sound ridiculous.
Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. At the same time I still disagree, in a world where any discussion is taken at once out of hand to be ridiculous then how can that world be perfect?

Here's the facts: We don't know what a fetus feels. At what point do we say it can feel pain? At what point is it alive? This is purely a question of beliefs, not facts.

I don't think any abortion should take place after week 9 except in very extreme cases. The brain begins to develop at week three, embryo can make a fist with its fingers at weeks 9-10. I have seen a film in which an abortion is explained and viewed through an ultrasound. During the abortion the embryo is described to be in pain. While I do not agree with the sensationalist manner in which the video is presented I still think it fairly shows that an 11 week old embryo feels pain and is aware of its surroundings. I will not name the film or give links and would not encourage anyone to watch it unless they were themselves considering abortion.

I still think the title of this thread should be changed. I now think, due to the personal and shocking nature of the theme, that it probably shouldn't be featured on a gamesite frequented by children. Just my opinion.

PuppyChow

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Re: Abortion: Why so serious? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5380.msg54739#msg54739
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2010, 02:26:14 pm »
Quote
It's the same principle that underlies why most societies consider acts like like rape, forced prostitution, and slavery to be abhorrent.  Those acts are not consistent with the notion that human life has intrinsic value, or that every human life should be treated with dignity or respect.
Here's the thing: we know for a fact slavery, rape, and forced prostitution are being done to human beings. Do we know when a fetus is alive? The exact day/month? At what point can it feel pain?

We don't know.

Just because you believe it's a human life doesn't mean it is. Just because I believe it's a human life doesn't mean it is.

As soon as it's proven when a fetus is alive, or when it can feel pain, I'll agree with outlawing abortion after that time. But only then.

Offline Boingo

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Re: Abortion: Why so serious? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5380.msg54888#msg54888
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2010, 08:01:05 pm »
Quote
It's the same principle that underlies why most societies consider acts like like rape, forced prostitution, and slavery to be abhorrent.  Those acts are not consistent with the notion that human life has intrinsic value, or that every human life should be treated with dignity or respect.
Here's the thing: we know for a fact slavery, rape, and forced prostitution are being done to human beings. Do we know when a fetus is alive? The exact day/month? At what point can it feel pain?

We don't know.

Just because you believe it's a human life doesn't mean it is. Just because I believe it's a human life doesn't mean it is.

As soon as it's proven when a fetus is alive, or when it can feel pain, I'll agree with outlawing abortion after that time. But only then.
I'm not sure if you're arguing that elective abortion is permissible because either (A) the child is not alive, or (B) the child is not human (or both.)  I'll attempt to address both of these points, but I won't hold you to making either point if you'd like to clarify further.

Addressing premise (A): The child is not alive.
From the moment of conception, the cells grow and divide at an exponential rate.  They build proteins, process and metabolize carbohydrates consuming oxygen and releasing carbon dioxide.  In that regard, they are indistinguishable from any other living cell on the planet Earth.  At what date/time is it alive?  Well, if the cells are doing all this growing and dividing from the moment of conception, then how can you argue they are not alive?

But of course the fetus is alive!  Why else would we be performing an abortion other than to stop the unborn child from growing further and reaching full gestation?  This unborn child is not like a seed in a packet on the shelf in the gardening section at the store, waiting to be planted and watered and put in appropriate soil to begin the process of setting down roots and shooting up stalks.  This child is more like the seedling that has established roots and deployed leaves and will bear fruit if left in place for the season.  I fear the only reason elective abortion is held by some as permissible while doing the same to a newborn is considered murder is that they cannot see the unborn child with their actual eyes (yet.)

Addressing premise (B): The child is not human.
What else could the child be?  Every human pregnancy that goes to term results in the birth of a human.  They've never turned out to be oak trees or banana slugs or even black bears.  If you did a chromosomal analysis, you would find all the same DNA as any other human on Earth.  Researchers acknowledge this fact by exploring ways to use fetal cells to repair damage or correct diseases in other humans.  If they could use the cells from cows or chickens or oak trees, they'd be using those because it'd be far less problematic at many levels.

Or perhaps you are defining unborn children as not human because they will change in size/shape at a later stage in development.  But, of course, even after birth many changes occur in size and shape of humans (and other animals.)  This doesn't preclude a 2 year-old from being a human being just because he's shorter than an adult or doesn't have his adult teeth yet. 

Or perhaps the premise you are asserting here is (B'): The child is not human because we cannot be sure he/she feels pain.
(Or, alternatively, are you arguing that elective abortion would be permissible to perform on a human being as long as it doesn't feel pain?) Who says it's necessary to feel pain to be considered human?  Could I stab a boxer after he's been knocked unconscious just because he couldn't feel it? What about someone in a coma?  Or a paraplegic? Or someone under anesthesia?  Moreover, the point is not to respect human life because they can feel pain but rather to respect human life because it is human life.

Thank you for taking the time to respond with your thoughts/comments.
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Offline Boingo

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Re: Abortion: Why so serious? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=5380.msg54895#msg54895
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2010, 08:06:38 pm »
Not truly a double-post since I just noticed the ad next to my last post contained the pertinent advertisement:
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