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Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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A view you probably didnt hear before on marriage https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30552.msg388370#msg388370
« on: September 03, 2011, 06:13:31 am »
Get rid of the tax bracket. All there should be to it as far as government intervention goes would be something that shows those 2 people went into a binding relational agreement. 
Notice I didnt say a man and a woman, I just said 2 people. You find a priest who wants to marry a gay couple, take it up with the priest. Honestly, Gay marriages always happened. The only difference was that they werent recognized by the state. Gays get married on a religious and social level all the time. The big problem that goes on is that its not recognized by the government. Well, I think government should have next to nothing to do with marriage. Now, I have no clue how this would effect tax brackets, or countless other things, and I dont think its realistic to actually expect this to happen, its just my 2 :electrum

note I really didnt think this out too much, and theres a lot of things that would need to be covered if this did happen, but I dont feel like looking into little details. If someone wants to get into semantics, Ill bring it up, but otherwise, I dont even feel like getting into it since everyone knows this will never happen.

One side note that I just thought of...
Im surprised there arent more single people arguing that they should recieve the same benifits of married people because they dont want to be treated different just because of the marital status.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: A view you probably didnt hear before on marriage https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30552.msg389166#msg389166
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2011, 02:18:32 am »
The governmental tax incentive for families (the advertised intent of the tax incentives) should at minimum be renamed so it is not confused with binding relational agreements.
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Astrocyte

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Re: A view you probably didnt hear before on marriage https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30552.msg389445#msg389445
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2011, 07:40:04 pm »
I probably don't understand the tax system well enough to speak clearly on that, but I agree with BP that there's no reason for the social/religious aspects of marriage and the legal aspect of marriage to intersect.

What is marriage, socially speaking? It's two people announcing that they now wish to be considered a singular family unit. The home culture(s) of the two people usually expects the completion of certain rituals to make the process of marrying socially legitimate, and may now assign social roles, assumptions, expectations, privileges, etc. based on the couple's new status -- e.g. in most cultures it's assumed that a married couple intends to create and parent children; in many cultures marriage is required to be considered a fully mature adult; the extended family or broader community may have some obligation to help the new couple establish a household; and so on.

What is marriage, religiously speaking? Depends entirely on the religion and on each person's participation within the religion. Nearly all religions require or expect the completion of certain ritual aspects in order to make the marriage legitimate in the eyes of that religion. Many religions view marriage as a partnership that extends beyond the physical/material and has a special interaction with the religion's beliefs or god(s).

What is marriage, legally speaking (in the U.S.)? You go to a designated government building, pay some money, and get someone authorized by the state and any two other people to sign a piece of paper that says you're married. Both of you are now entitled to a tax break, and your power of attorney claims will be taken more seriously than those made by two people who are not married. For most financial processes involving state or federal governments, your property and assets are now considered a pool, and in many situations (varying by state) creditors will be legally allowed to seize assets from either of you to repay a debt held by one of you. If the marriage is legally dissolved (i.e., if you divorce), both of you are entitled to go through a legal process in order to divide or reassign your property, assets, and access to any children.

Not a lot in common between that third one and those first two, eh? If it were up to me, there would be absolutely no government involvement in two (or more) people choosing to be a family unit, within or without a religion -- but I'm a crazy hippie like that.



Im surprised there arent more single people arguing that they should recieve the same benifits of married people because they dont want to be treated different just because of the marital status.
(Once again, only speaking about the U.S. here.)
I think most single people agree with this, but there are a few reasons it hasn't happened, I think. One is that "unmarried" is kind of a watery legal status, similar to "separated," whereas "married" and "divorced" have fairly solid legal definitions; any assignment or reorganization of rights would require a definition first. Another is that society frankly ranks married people above single people in terms of presumed maturity and value to the group, especially if the single person is above a certain age -- and almost any married person's solution to any disparity is for the single person to just get married. The third is that the legal benefits of marriage are actually relatively few beyond power of attorney, which usually only comes up in a single person's life when someone they're close to is incapacitated, dying, or dead. The tax breaks can be significant but I doubt most people (married or single) understand taxes well enough to care.
Now if you're talking about the de facto benefits married people get outside the legal system (access to health insurance through one spouse's employer, better terms for loans, etc) -- yeah, those are a load of crap, but what company is going to volunteer to make less money off single people?

Offline Belthus

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Re: A view you probably didnt hear before on marriage https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30552.msg389534#msg389534
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2011, 10:37:34 pm »
I agree with the OP in one respect - that the proposal is not well thought out. Family law has existed as long as government has. Ever watch the TV show Cops? A large percentage of it is about domestic disputes. Ever read the Old Testament? A lot in there about family law.

Families have quarrels and issues. Who gets the kids? How much should be paid in child support? Should the family be included in insurance? Who has hospital visitation rights? To think that tax status is all of family law, or even a major part, is ignorant. Gays believe - correctly, in my opinion - that many of the same issues that heterosexual couples have settled by the courts also arise in their own relationships. Are you so averse to gay rights that you are willing to do away with a legacy of centuries of jurisprudence (including English common law and Roman law before that)? Not a conservative sentiment, but very radical - much more radical than extending rights to gays.

Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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Re: A view you probably didnt hear before on marriage https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30552.msg389541#msg389541
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2011, 10:51:01 pm »
-snip-
Lol, sorry, I just thought that whole post was hilarious, and completely off base to my goal. I thought I made it clear that although I dont agree with gay marriages, government shouldnt be involved. Astrocyte did a very good job giving an in depth explanation of the 3 different types of marriage and why the third shouldnt have anything to do with marriage.
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Angelic_Dawn

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Re: A view you probably didnt hear before on marriage https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30552.msg389551#msg389551
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2011, 11:47:00 pm »
I thought I made it clear that although I dont agree with gay marriages, government shouldnt be involved.
(Not trying to derail the thread, but) just out of curiosity, Why are you against Gay marriages?

Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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Re: A view you probably didnt hear before on marriage https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30552.msg389570#msg389570
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2011, 12:55:11 am »
I thought I made it clear that although I dont agree with gay marriages, government shouldnt be involved.
(Not trying to derail the thread, but) just out of curiosity, Why are you against Gay marriages?
religious reasons. Also note I am very adamant on the hate the sin love the sinner.
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Angelic_Dawn

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Re: A view you probably didnt hear before on marriage https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30552.msg389577#msg389577
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2011, 01:10:46 am »
Fair enough, tho i havent found the chapter against Lesbian relationships(=also Gay) yet =P

Carry on with the thread.

Ps:PM if anyone feels a need to respond to me,  keeps the thread ontopic.   =p


Astrocyte

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Re: A view you probably didnt hear before on marriage https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30552.msg389580#msg389580
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2011, 01:19:04 am »
Belthus does bring up a valid point that a lot of family law is directly intertwined with the legal construct of marriage. A crazy thought I have had before is to entirely separate marriage and child-raising as legal entities. I don't really know how this would work legally, but it comes from seeing family and friends suffer through so much stuff in family courts that made no sense whatsoever, and also seeing plenty of outwardly happy, sane couples utterly neglect their children. Maybe changing the system would only create another stupid, abusive, nonsensical system, I dunno.

Also I want to make it clear that I think "marriage, legally speaking" in my above post should be available to everyone and be renamed "civil union" in all cases. Religions can then decide for themselves what their definition of marriage is, and not feel like the government is forcing them to recognize (or not recognize) other forms of marriage -- because all the government would be providing is a legal construct called a civil union, they wouldn't be providing "marriage," that'd be the church or culture's job exclusively.

 

blarg: