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Offline OldTrees

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Re: The anthropic principle and the meaning of life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46343.msg1036884#msg1036884
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2013, 03:27:24 pm »
Oh.
Well if you are limiting yourself to merely "How did we come to be?" and "How did we come to have instincts for survival?" Then you are solidly in the realm of the is. This is the realm that science can operate. I had mistakenly assumed you were also trying to talk about "How ought we live?" which, being an ought, cannot be derived from is. Hence my reservations about restricting oneself to falsifiable theories.

PS: If a God can violate our guess at the laws of Physics then our guess is wrong. The actual laws of physics already allowed the God's actions. (same holds for miracles)


So this thread can be closed with 1+2 statements with no reference to premises 1 or 2:
"How did we come to be?"
(Premise 3) We came from the natural selection and genetic drift operating on the heritable variation resulting in speciation.
"How did we come to have instincts for survival?"
(Premise 3) Creatures with instincts for survival have a greater relative reproductive success. This causes a tendency for survival instinct to become universal.


Finally, why is this in Philosophy if all you wanted was a repeat of premise 3?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 03:29:45 pm by OldTrees »
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Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: The anthropic principle and the meaning of life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46343.msg1036927#msg1036927
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2013, 06:13:03 pm »
No, not how. I am asking "why do we exist" and "why do we have instincts for survival." As in, whether there is a purpose for us to continue our existence. Premises 1 and 2 are there so that no one will say "we exist because God wanted us to" or something along those lines.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 06:16:41 pm by Bloodshadow »
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: The anthropic principle and the meaning of life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46343.msg1036938#msg1036938
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2013, 06:49:12 pm »
No, not how. I am asking "why do we exist" and "why do we have instincts for survival." As in, whether there is a purpose for us to continue our existence. Premises 1 and 2 are there so that no one will say "we exist because God wanted us to" or something along those lines.
Material causes do not imprint Final causes. Efficient causes can imprint Final causes but you have excluded discussion of Efficient causes. There is a question about whether the Formal cause of a thing might result in a Final cause but you have excluded that discussion as well when I brought it up.

However with the exception of Final causes resulting from Efficient causes, Final causes are not understood by falsifiable hypothesizes. (Is-Ought problem)

Terms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_causes
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 06:55:46 pm by OldTrees »
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Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: The anthropic principle and the meaning of life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46343.msg1036958#msg1036958
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 08:39:02 pm »
Then I am saying that because of the anthropic principle, there does not need to be a final cause to the existence of humanity or any other living species, assuming the species wasn't created by some other entity.

Why did I make this thread? Well, because for a really long time I used to wonder about the final cause of human life. I assumed that there ought to be one, but failed to think of any. Recently I reached the conclusion that there does not need to be one due to the anthropic principle. I posted this thread to see what other people think regarding this issue, and to see if I've inadvertently made any fallacious reasoning.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: The anthropic principle and the meaning of life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46343.msg1036961#msg1036961
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2013, 08:45:08 pm »
Then I am saying that because of the anthropic principle, there does not need to be a final cause to the existence of humanity or any other living species, assuming the species wasn't created by some other entity.

Why did I make this thread? Well, because for a really long time I used to wonder about the final cause of human life. I assumed that there ought to be one, but failed to think of any. Recently I reached the conclusion that there does not need to be one due to the anthropic principle. I posted this thread to see what other people think regarding this issue, and to see if I've inadvertently made any fallacious reasoning.
1) There may or may not be a final cause. (You don't need the anthropic principle to say this)
2) The possibility of a final cause is completely unrelated to the ability to ask if there is a final cause. (So no, the anthropic principle is completely irrelevant)
3) Since we are not discussing any of the possible causes for Final Causes, we cannot make further headway.
(Think of this as: There may or may not be giant squid. However without looking in the ocean we cannot make headway.)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 08:51:02 pm by OldTrees »
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Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: The anthropic principle and the meaning of life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46343.msg1037076#msg1037076
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2013, 03:03:53 am »
Quote
1) There may or may not be a final cause. (You don't need the anthropic principle to say this)
2) The possibility of a final cause is completely unrelated to the ability to ask if there is a final cause. (So no, the anthropic principle is completely irrelevant)

True, the anthropic principle does not say "there is a final cause" or "there isn't a final cause". However, as I argued, it does say that "it is not the case that there must be a final cause". In other words, "a final cause may or may not exist, but its existence is not a necessity". Do you agree with this at least?
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: The anthropic principle and the meaning of life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46343.msg1037120#msg1037120
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2013, 05:13:18 am »
Quote
1) There may or may not be a final cause. (You don't need the anthropic principle to say this)
2) The possibility of a final cause is completely unrelated to the ability to ask if there is a final cause. (So no, the anthropic principle is completely irrelevant)

True, the anthropic principle does not say "there is a final cause" or "there isn't a final cause". However, as I argued, it does say that "it is not the case that there must be a final cause". In other words, "a final cause may or may not exist, but its existence is not a necessity". Do you agree with this at least?
Your argument critiqued
1) You irrationally assumed a Final cause from the existence of the survival instinct.
No support given
2) You propose the theory the assumed Final cause was a result of a designer.
Unreasonable start. Almost a strawman.
3) You use the anthropic principle to explain why the survival instinct is not evidence in support of an Efficient cause.
Valid but axiom 3 already covered it.
4) You conclude that since a proposed theory is not proved, then the lack of a Final cause is possible.
Merely evoking the anthropic principle was insufficient to eliminate the Efficient cause theory you proposed. (Axiom 3 is required since aliens pass Axioms 1&2) Furthermore eliminating the Efficient cause theory you proposed would not be evidence that there might not be any Final causes.

A better argument is:
There is no evidence that Final causes exist by necessity. Therefore we cannot conclude that a Final cause must exist. As a result of the binary nature of existence, if we cannot conclude a Final cause must exist then we adopt the position that it is possible a Final cause might not exist.
Notice how this avoids using any of your 3 axioms.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 05:15:50 am by OldTrees »
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Offline BloodshadowTopic starter

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Re: The anthropic principle and the meaning of life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46343.msg1037168#msg1037168
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2013, 08:29:08 am »
So it seems that the axioms make my arguments redundant. Well, that certainly wasn't my intention... so I guess I didn't word things correctly. Maybe I should modify the axioms to be less restrictive, and bring Occam's razor into the discussion. But then this will probably just turn into another typical abiogenesis vs intelligent design debate.

Right now I'm really not in the mood to think of anything to fix my axioms and arguments, due to depression and such. Maybe I'll come back to this some time later, if I get in the mood... but until then, consider this thread closed.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: The anthropic principle and the meaning of life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46343.msg1037368#msg1037368
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2013, 09:19:51 pm »
But then this will probably just turn into another typical abiogenesis vs intelligent design debate.
A method of avoiding this is to require arguments that use a premise of "If intelligent design" not be attacked on the basis of that premise.

This way we could explore:
Do we have traits (Formal cause) such that a Final cause emerges?
If Intellegent designer X was the Efficient cause can we deduce if they had a purpose in mind?
If an Intellegent designer had a purpose in mind, does that make our Final cause the same as the purpose intended?

(Obviously you would be most interested in the first of the 3 relevant questions.)
However until you are ready to continue, I will assume this is closed.
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Offline liamjohn16

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Re: The anthropic principle and the meaning of life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46343.msg1037439#msg1037439
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2013, 01:31:50 am »
Who knows why we are floating around on a rock in the insignificance of space. We are here because of a specific combination of elements met each other and created life. Evolution over the millions of years carved the people we are today. The answer to the meaning of life? Isnt it just 'to live'. Or is there more to it. Who really knows?
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Re: The anthropic principle and the meaning of life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46343.msg1043065#msg1043065
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2013, 01:03:49 am »
I agree with liamjohn16.

To add, I think that the question is not, "What is the meaning of life?", but rather, "Now that we were lucky enough to be alive, what are we going to do with it?"
There is no set meaning to life. Life is what it is. You got it. Do whatever you want with it. There will be no divine consequences to stop you if you don't follow this, "meaning of life".
Now what do I want to do with life? Well, be happy, with base pleasures as well as higher ones. Oh, and live longer to try to be happy for longer (forever if I can, though some people don't approve of that).
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Re: The anthropic principle and the meaning of life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46343.msg1043318#msg1043318
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2013, 06:41:27 pm »
The meaning of life is to give life meaning.


Meaning is a subjective mental construct created by sentient being. We are sentient so we can create the meaning of life witch fits us the best.

 

anything
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