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Offline CactusKing

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260724#msg1260724
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2017, 12:36:37 am »
Would being vegan mean you only eat eggs...

No, being vegan means you don't eat eggs.
I believe that was meant in the context to the article you linked, the first paragraph of which went along the lines of "veganism isn't about the strict definition of veganism." Of course, this being a philosophy topic...  :P

So veganism has guidelines as to what is and isn't moral, and they stick to them even when logic dictates that you aren't harming, abusing or even supporting any sort of cruelty to animals. This is part of the reason why people say being veganism doesn't make sense, because half the time the ideals are just wasteful and ignorant.

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Offline Ekki

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260763#msg1260763
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2017, 06:31:49 am »
Would being vegan mean you only eat eggs...

No, being vegan means you don't eat eggs.
I believe that was meant in the context to the article you linked, the first paragraph of which went along the lines of "veganism isn't about the strict definition of veganism." Of course, this being a philosophy topic...  :P

So veganism has guidelines as to what is and isn't moral, and they stick to them even when logic dictates that you aren't harming, abusing or even supporting any sort of cruelty to animals. This is part of the reason why people say being veganism doesn't make sense, because half the time the ideals are just wasteful and ignorant.

To be fair, every idea driven group has the same issue. Almost everyone who follows a strict moral code will, from time to time, break it. It's unreasonable to ask for everyone to follow every single moral ramification of their ideas, if not hypocritical. Would you call it reasonable if they fed their dog following their vegan diet? If there's no alternative, it's still better than letting it die.

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260772#msg1260772
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2017, 09:15:26 am »
Why is it wrong for me to eat Bob?
Does that reasoning pertain to this random non human?
Is it wrong for me to eat a human Jane that is different from Bob in that manner?
Why is it wrong for me to eat Jane?
Does that reasoning pertain to this random non human?
...Repeat...

If you end up with "It is wrong to eat humans because they are human" then think harder. There is nothing special about Bob or Jane being human unless there is something special about humanity. If there is something special about humanity, then consider humans without that trait and non humans with that trait.

If you end up with something else: Congrats! You now understand veganism even if your answer (example "cannibalism is okay") is nothing like veganism (example chosen for contrast).


Ethics is not a solved problem. Plenty of people have made bets as to the answer, but the problem remains unsolved. As such there are many answers to "Why is it immoral for me to eat John?" and several of those answers preclude eating livestock (even knowing uneaten livestock is extinct livestock).
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 09:20:55 am by OldTrees »
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Offline WrekxTopic starter

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260775#msg1260775
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2017, 01:02:07 pm »
Wow... I didnt expect so many replies its been a long time since I posted in elements forums didn't know they were still so alive.


What I was trying to get at is that we exploit animals the same way we exploit our planet and the same way we exploit each other (specifically big business). So what the philosophical impact? If you say "bacon is delicious, end of story" then you're setting a precedence where self-appeasing behavior is more important than morality. That's the point, because that's how things are.

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1260780#msg1260780
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2017, 03:49:35 pm »
Wow... I didnt expect so many replies its been a long time since I posted in elements forums didn't know they were still so alive.


What I was trying to get at is that we exploit animals the same way we exploit our planet and the same way we exploit each other (specifically big business). So what the philosophical impact? If you say "bacon is delicious, end of story" then you're setting a precedence where self-appeasing behavior is more important than morality. That's the point, because that's how things are.

Well
1: Yes, we do benefit from animals, the planet, and each other. Although I would argue that the way we benefit from each differs. We tend to consume animals, shape the planet, and benefit other humans as a means of benefiting ourselves even more. These differences have characteristics that might have moral significance.
2: You are relying on the negative connotations of the word exploit rather than have your argument focus on supporting why that interaction should have a negative connotation. Doing so is begging the question and thus harms the presentation of your case.

So let's detail out your case: Do you want to start with your equivalating of our interactions with animal/planet/humans or do you want to simplify and only focus on animals?



Finally merely to throw a wrench in the works:
What about the humans that cannot live without getting some of the essential proteins from meat? There are non meat sources of the essential proteins, but food allergies can cut out vital parts of a non meat diet.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 04:16:57 pm by OldTrees »
"It is common sense to listen to the wisdom of the wise. The wise are marked by their readiness to listen to the wisdom of the fool."
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Offline WrekxTopic starter

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1261335#msg1261335
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2017, 03:25:09 pm »
Wow... I didnt expect so many replies its been a long time since I posted in elements forums didn't know they were still so alive.


What I was trying to get at is that we exploit animals the same way we exploit our planet and the same way we exploit each other (specifically big business). So what the philosophical impact? If you say "bacon is delicious, end of story" then you're setting a precedence where self-appeasing behavior is more important than morality. That's the point, because that's how things are.

Well
1: Yes, we do benefit from animals, the planet, and each other. Although I would argue that the way we benefit from each differs. We tend to consume animals, shape the planet, and benefit other humans as a means of benefiting ourselves even more. These differences have characteristics that might have moral significance.
2: You are relying on the negative connotations of the word exploit rather than have your argument focus on supporting why that interaction should have a negative connotation. Doing so is begging the question and thus harms the presentation of your case.

So let's detail out your case: Do you want to start with your equivalating of our interactions with animal/planet/humans or do you want to simplify and only focus on animals?



Finally merely to throw a wrench in the works:
What about the humans that cannot live without getting some of the essential proteins from meat? There are non meat sources of the essential proteins, but food allergies can cut out vital parts of a non meat diet.

I'm not against eating meat. In a lot of cases I'm not against hunting. Not against survival at all so I don't see any "wrench". However, you're implying that we can treat animals however we choose because that's how they reciprocate all the great (sarcasm) things we do for them. If you put that kind of energy out into the world would you want it returned? That's exactly what's happens.

I know it's hard to swallow because it's not the social norm but is that way of thinking consistent with your other moral views? Well, now I'm just cracking a whole other egg open so I'll stop there.

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1262136#msg1262136
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2017, 04:06:54 am »
Wow... I didnt expect so many replies its been a long time since I posted in elements forums didn't know they were still so alive.


What I was trying to get at is that we exploit animals the same way we exploit our planet and the same way we exploit each other (specifically big business). So what the philosophical impact? If you say "bacon is delicious, end of story" then you're setting a precedence where self-appeasing behavior is more important than morality. That's the point, because that's how things are.

Well
1: Yes, we do benefit from animals, the planet, and each other. Although I would argue that the way we benefit from each differs. We tend to consume animals, shape the planet, and benefit other humans as a means of benefiting ourselves even more. These differences have characteristics that might have moral significance.
2: You are relying on the negative connotations of the word exploit rather than have your argument focus on supporting why that interaction should have a negative connotation. Doing so is begging the question and thus harms the presentation of your case.

So let's detail out your case: Do you want to start with your equivalating of our interactions with animal/planet/humans or do you want to simplify and only focus on animals?



Finally merely to throw a wrench in the works:
What about the humans that cannot live without getting some of the essential proteins from meat? There are non meat sources of the essential proteins, but food allergies can cut out vital parts of a non meat diet.

I'm not against eating meat. In a lot of cases I'm not against hunting. Not against survival at all so I don't see any "wrench". However, you're implying that we can treat animals however we choose because that's how they reciprocate all the great (sarcasm) things we do for them. If you put that kind of energy out into the world would you want it returned? That's exactly what's happens.

I know it's hard to swallow because it's not the social norm but is that way of thinking consistent with your other moral views? Well, now I'm just cracking a whole other egg open so I'll stop there.

Sorry for my slow response time (I don't visit here as often as I once did).


Ah so you are okay with the consumption of meat in the abstract but are concerned about certain specifics.

I did not and will not imply we can treat animals however we choose. Although the lack of an implication is not an implication of the inverse either.

Nor will I imply that animals possess the capacity of consent that is required for a reciprocity based relationship. A careful read of my post might note I differentiated the 3 interactions humans have(with animals, with the world, & with people).


To the meat of your reply:
Quote
If you put that kind of energy out into the world would you want it returned? That's exactly what's happens.

I know it's hard to swallow because it's not the social norm but is that way of thinking consistent with your other moral views? Well, now I'm just cracking a whole other egg open so I'll stop there.

If I am correctly parsing your post, you are concerned with a morality that judges actions based upon if they conform to "effort should be rewarded".
Ex:
The cow's effort eating grass should be rewarded.
Killing the cow and using it as food is not a reward to the cow.
Therefore killing the cow is immoral absent other unmentioned factors.

Is this your position? If so, elaborate. If not, elaborate clearer so that I might parse better.

PS: Do not worry about social norms or my morality. Neither of those 2 independent things is relevant to getting a clear idea of what you are saying. The former(Social Norms) are merely popular opinions. Popularity is unrelated to veracity so those can be discarded. The latter(my morality) is something I have not stated and thus is hard for you to accurately presume about.
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Offline Sqantic Pilau

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Re: What's up with vegans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=64285.msg1266580#msg1266580
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2017, 04:06:44 am »
Probably because dogs are carnivores, physically incapable of sustaining themselves without meat. Humans have a choice, being able to digest plant matter as well as meat

yep but a vegan still pay money for a murdered animal(s); is a huge contradiction, it's like the life of the dog it's more important than the life of the cow/pig; this is called speciesism, one of the most discussed topics in private fb groups

Just to correct what seems to be a fairly common (but incorrect) view - - dogs can live perfectly happily and healthily on vegan diets.
By eck it's reet gradley, it's a proper Sqantic that is, I tells thee.

 

anything
blarg: