Save the world or listen to God?

[kimham8a]

I think even with multiple chances, theoretically nothing should change because the only thing that would change is your faith in God. If you continue to trust His judgement, you would keep going (theoretically).

God, if existent, I don't think considers us his property. And I don't really get your point. Why would he want to destroy his stuff? For fun? Can he even have fun?

[northcity4]

From a completely logical perspective, this sounds fine, but personally in such a situation I (and, I think, Kieerkegaard) would do no such thing. I think the simple phrase ''killing the world'' and the loose word ''murder'' makes you see things completely objectively, but when you specificallly think of each individual person, for example your mother, screaming and trying to get away from you (because they wouldn't just sit there while you stab them), no matter what you're going to be subjective when you're actually chasing/stabbing them (and therefore not hurt them).
P.S. Just in case someone reading this is convinced that God has just told them to do something crazy, please don't do it, there's ALWAYS a chance you could be wrong. (saw this case on the news with a mother killing her three kids eeek!)
[/quote]

What I meant was that in a situation where you hear the pain or committing the act is a 'psychotic' act it makes it much harder, maybe might even make you change your mind about what your doing. Hopefully that clears things up.

About the nature of God, why can't God have fun? Jesus had fun on earth. Also, why can't he consider us his property? He made everything...what are you going to tell God if he decides to destroy some star way off in nowhere? Tell him he can't? Also, what right do we have to say God can't morally kill us? Like from earlier, maybe what God says is what is moral and that is how he wants things. Kind of like if your the owner of a store, you can store policy whenever you feel like it. Up to you.

[bobby.dan.andrews]

1) Lucifer is a crafty tainted being; he gave knowledge to Adam & Eve while he knew humanity wasn't mature enough for such knowledge. Learning a 5-years old boy how to use a gun is NOT a good thing to do. God didn't prevent humanity for aquiring knowledge; he just waited untill humanity was ready for it.
2) Jesus doesn't need food to survive; he is God. Lucifer hadn't gave food to Jesus due to love; he toyed with Jesus and the faith towards God in general. Capitalists toy with people via a similar way; they steal billions from people and after that they hypocritically make donations of 10,000 dollars to poor people. After all, isn't Lucifer responsible for thirst or hunger? Wasn't Lucifer the one who led people towards sin and introduced all the bad things in our lives?
3) Death exists because sin exists. Sin exists because that damn being Lucifer manipulated and driven us into it. If I say that Lucifer is responsible for every death and suffering in the whole world I won't be exaggerating things at all.
4) Lucifer is not going to be the punisher of sinners in Hell (this is just a comical or too simplified representation of afterlife); he is actually going to be punished in Hell too. Actually, Hell is not even an extremely hot, volcanic place. Hell is more like a phsychological punishment.
5) God warns good people about incoming calamities. However, my opinion about flooding, Sodoma etc. is quite different than that of a Bible and I don't have the patience to discuss it right now (it will probably take me a couple of pages).

1) Carefull with the days. First of all the term used as day exists before the making of light and earth. So term day does not apply from terestrial view.
Secondly earth was created in one day also, so 5 days old boy is another missunderstood term. If you go more in depth, Bible says Lucifer was created by God, so we can already ask if God's creation was not perfect or was made like it was on porpose ?
2) Is still questionable if Jesus needed food to survive. He was sent on earth to live as a human and feel like a human. Saying he didn't need food to survive, making him look less a phisic form, will only asks if he suffered phisically when he was put on his cross.
Again, not only bad things leads to starvation. Nature control you can put on God or Satan ? Population growth rate ? Differences between people ? I remember Babylon story and the "birth" of multi languages. You can say is more a reaction to a game between good and evil.
3) What if Adam and Eve didn't ate the apple ? Would we exist now ? Or Adam and Eve would have lived for ever alone, without a conscience. What is life if you don't realize you are alive ?
4)Hard to describe hell. Good people before the arrival of Jesus were also stuck in hell if you know Bible well. How can good people be punished ?
5) God doesn't warn about a thing anymore. Maybe He did long time ago. Like you say, is a looong talk

* No, I am not a follower of Lucifer if you ask yourself. I am not one with blind beliefs either.

[northcity4]

1) Lucifer is a crafty tainted being; he gave knowledge to Adam & Eve while he knew humanity wasn't mature enough for such knowledge. Learning a 5-years old boy how to use a gun is NOT a good thing to do. God didn't prevent humanity for aquiring knowledge; he just waited untill humanity was ready for it.
2) Jesus doesn't need food to survive; he is God. Lucifer hadn't gave food to Jesus due to love; he toyed with Jesus and the faith towards God in general. Capitalists toy with people via a similar way; they steal billions from people and after that they hypocritically make donations of 10,000 dollars to poor people. After all, isn't Lucifer responsible for thirst or hunger? Wasn't Lucifer the one who led people towards sin and introduced all the bad things in our lives?
3) Death exists because sin exists. Sin exists because that damn being Lucifer manipulated and driven us into it. If I say that Lucifer is responsible for every death and suffering in the whole world I won't be exaggerating things at all.
4) Lucifer is not going to be the punisher of sinners in Hell (this is just a comical or too simplified representation of afterlife); he is actually going to be punished in Hell too. Actually, Hell is not even an extremely hot, volcanic place. Hell is more like a phsychological punishment.
5) God warns good people about incoming calamities. However, my opinion about flooding, Sodoma etc. is quite different than that of a Bible and I don't have the patience to discuss it right now (it will probably take me a couple of pages).

1) Carefull with the days. First of all the term used as day exists before the making of light and earth. So term day does not apply from terestrial view.
Secondly earth was created in one day also, so 5 days old boy is another missunderstood term. If you go more in depth, Bible says Lucifer was created by God, so we can already ask if God's creation was not perfect or was made like it was on porpose ?
2) Is still questionable if Jesus needed food to survive. He was sent on earth to live as a human and feel like a human. Saying he didn't need food to survive, making him look less a phisic form, will only asks if he suffered phisically when he was put on his cross.
Again, not only bad things leads to starvation. Nature control you can put on God or Satan ? Population growth rate ? Differences between people ? I remember Babylon story and the "birth" of multi languages. You can say is more a reaction to a game between good and evil.
3) What if Adam and Eve didn't ate the apple ? Would we exist now ? Or Adam and Eve would have lived for ever alone, without a conscience. What is life if you don't realize you are alive ?
4)Hard to describe hell. Good people before the arrival of Jesus were also stuck in hell if you know Bible well. How can good people be punished ?
5) God doesn't warn about a thing anymore. Maybe He did long time ago. Like you say, is a looong talk

Woah woah, be careful what you say.

1) have you ever heard of a man named Ken Ham? I think you should look him up. According to the bible and Greek, the word 'day' means the exact same thing as a day in today's terms. Also, exodus, leviticus, numbers were also written not too far apart. Guess what, why don't you question what the word 'day' means in those books? All linguistically has the same meaning: 24hr day as in our time here in 2012 (soon to be 2013 unless the end of the world comes  )

2) Jesus did need food to survive. Everything he went through was bearable by a human. You can go 40 days without food if done correctly. In the garden of Gasemethe (however you spell that place), it says his sweat became blood. It is possible to sweat blood. God didn't cheat the system. He suffered and played the 'game' fairly to show with God, it is possible to get through life.
3) This isn't really a big deal. Anyone could have 'sinned' later down the road. So why create humans in the first place? God wanted 'friends' if you will (I guess God can get lonely), but friends who will love him sincerely which is a valid reason to know sin would come if he did this and still let it through.
4) Define Good? Also, Hell is a decision you make. People get this topic wrong all the time. God doesn't send people to hell the same way a judge isn't the reason you get jail time. It was YOUR CHOICE. Hell by definition is that which is gone from God. By saying you don't want God is to say you choose Hell by definition. (You can pm me to talk about this since Hell just so happens to be a very bad place).
5) What does he have to warn. Don't blame God if he doesn't tell you something. That is like telling your teacher you suck because you didn't tell me about how hard the test was. You should be prepared. In the same way people in biblical times were the 'test' bunnies and there stories are there for us to read. So in a way, you have been warned.

How does this all relate to the topic? Jesus went through unbearable things to know what it's like to be a human. If he is going to ask you to nuke the world and unlike the Abraham example it actually happens, the responsibility is on God. If what God did is wrong, then he now becomes a sinful God. If what he did was ok or right... that is what I am still asking:

does God have the means to nuke human life if his first intentions in the first place were to have people that loved him for who he was? Again property? God decides morals and what is okay/not okay? Anything I am missing? Maybe God is done with his test to see how humanity would be over the course of many years and he is destroying the experiment? Maybe God acted like he cared for us but does not see us as living but disposable?

[northcity4]

Just to be clear, this end of the world stuff is false. It has proven by astronomers and scientists, so don't worry. 

[bobby.dan.andrews]

Which would you rather do: Let a person live a good life or kill him?

Make all the arguments you want, but just saying, if a good God exists, he made some pretty huge errors.

What if god is doing this to stop all pain and suffering? What if the person isn't going to live a good/happy life? What if after this all good people go to heaven (or equivalent) and the only ones who go to hell (or equivalent) are those who rightfully deserve it?

What if everyone goes to heaven?

Killing to stop suffering ? Come on. I saw better movies with apochalyptical ideas, like The chamber of Souls goes empty.
Why would you let a baby get birth to kill him next day ?
Where is the so called free will if you can tell me how my life will be ? Is free will an illusion ?

[northcity4]

Which would you rather do: Let a person live a good life or kill him?

Make all the arguments you want, but just saying, if a good God exists, he made some pretty huge errors.

What if god is doing this to stop all pain and suffering? What if the person isn't going to live a good/happy life? What if after this all good people go to heaven (or equivalent) and the only ones who go to hell (or equivalent) are those who rightfully deserve it?

What if everyone goes to heaven?

Killing to stop suffering ? Come on. I saw better movies with apochalyptical ideas, like The chamber of Souls goes empty.
Why would you let a baby get birth to kill him next day ?
Where is the so called free will if you can tell me how my life will be ? Is free will an illusion ?

I agree, but about the baby thing, if the baby is human, we still don't have the right to kill it. Did you read my statements about Sethe from beloved? Why let her children live if all that is going to happen to them is  brutal slavery? Sethe even in this moment still doesn't have the right to kill her own children. Why let a baby be born if it is most likely to die? Because it deserves every freedom you go when you were born.

Something to look at, there is a village where the death of people ages 0-5 is like 98%. The families do not even give their children a name till they have reached 5yrs old. Notice they don't kill the human though, they let it live.

Free will...I think you misunderstand. The best way to understand God being omniscient is by using excel on your computer. You put in a new value, you see how things change. You put 2 humans on the world, here is how things will turn out. Plus, why tell someone their future? That could alter it. Plus, it's not exciting either. That is like opening christmas presents before christmas. Totally defeats the purpose.

[bobby.dan.andrews]

1) You are wrong mate. From many points of view.
It is hard to define term day and 24 hours without an Earth, Sun and rotations of the earth. There just are no terms to define it.
I don't care who said what, all talks are suppositions. Till you can not define a term with some facts behind, don't use it.
Just like how you define Adam and Eve, beeing 5 days old. Were they created as kids or fully evolved as in mature state. How can you define love without self conscience. How would they be different from a robot that is set up to tell you "I love you" all day long ? Would you consider the robot a friend ?
2) I had no intention to say he didn't suffered, only wanted to point that He did needed food.
4) You didn't got the point. As it is said, everyone who died during Old Testament, good or evil, went to Hell. Only after the arrival of Jesus exists a Paradise as oposed to Hell.
5) There is no blame, just stated there are no warnings.
6) As a note, I said it any another post, I will keep saying it. Bible as we know it is a book. A book written by man. There were so many times (and still are) when people used/use the huge power of religion to manipulate. Will again remember of Inquisition and Crusades.

And as another reminder, the topic is more interesting if you look from a different point of view. And I will translate your question from God believers to Allah believers. What if Allah told already to musulmans that we must be eradicated ? What if Bin Laden was listening to those kind of orders. What if God and Allah are only different names for different people and same one in fact ?

[bobby.dan.andrews]

I agree, but about the baby thing, if the baby is human, we still don't have the right to kill it. Did you read my statements about Sethe from beloved? Why let her children live if all that is going to happen to them is  brutal slavery? Sethe even in this moment still doesn't have the right to kill her own children. Why let a baby be born if it is most likely to die? Because it deserves every freedom you go when you were born.

Something to look at, there is a village where the death of people ages 0-5 is like 98%. The families do not even give their children a name till they have reached 5yrs old. Notice they don't kill the human though, they let it live.

You keep missunderstanding me. When I saud  Why would you let babies get birth just to kill them next day, maybe I should have used a You as for God. Was not questioniing the right of the parents but the lack of logic from a Divine intervention.

And one more thing. God can not or should never do such a thing ever again. He promised Moises that he will never harm human kind in such a way anymore, and as a testament of the promise he gave us the rainbow. Doing it by himself or ask Mr. President to do it is one and same action.

[russianspy1234]

4) You didn't got the point. As it is said, everyone who died during Old Testament, good or evil, went to Hell. Only after the arrival of Jesus exists a Paradise as oposed to Hell.

where did you get that? first time ive heard such an idea.

And one more thing. God can not or should never do such a thing ever again. He promised Moises that he will never harm human kind in such a way anymore, and as a testament of the promise he gave us the rainbow. Doing it by himself or ask Mr. President to do it is one and same action.

actually the promise was very specific to never destroying the world by flood.  anything else is fair game.

[northcity4]

4) You didn't got the point. As it is said, everyone who died during Old Testament, good or evil, went to Hell. Only after the arrival of Jesus exists a Paradise as oposed to Hell.

where did you get that? first time ive heard such an idea.

And one more thing. God can not or should never do such a thing ever again. He promised Moises that he will never harm human kind in such a way anymore, and as a testament of the promise he gave us the rainbow. Doing it by himself or ask Mr. President to do it is one and same action.

actually the promise was very specific to never destroying the world by flood.  anything else is fair game.

Agreed...



Andrews, this is the last time I will try making sense. Quit being so close minded and actually read. The word 'day' by definition in its original language means the 24hr day like we have today. Greek or Hebrew, doesn't matter, the person(s) who wrote Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy all meant a 24hr day. This has been proven by many historians, biblical experts, and the world renown Ken Ham.

1) You are wrong mate. From many points of view.
It is hard to define term day and 24 hours without an Earth, Sun and rotations of the earth. There just are no terms to define it.
I don't care who said what, all talks are suppositions. Till you can not define a term with some facts behind, don't use it.
Just like how you define Adam and Eve, beeing 5 days old. Were they created as kids or fully evolved as in mature state. How can you define love without self conscience. How would they be different from a robot that is set up to tell you "I love you" all day long ? Would you consider the robot a friend ?
2) I had no intention to say he didn't suffered, only wanted to point that He did needed food.
4) You didn't got the point. As it is said, everyone who died during Old Testament, good or evil, went to Hell. Only after the arrival of Jesus exists a Paradise as oposed to Hell.
5) There is no blame, just stated there are no warnings.
6) As a note, I said it any another post, I will keep saying it. Bible as we know it is a book. A book written by man. There were so many times (and still are) when people used/use the huge power of religion to manipulate. Will again remember of Inquisition and Crusades.

And as another reminder, the topic is more interesting if you look from a different point of view. And I will translate your question from God believers to Allah believers. What if Allah told already to musulmans that we must be eradicated ? What if Bin Laden was listening to those kind of orders. What if God and Allah are only different names for different people and same one in fact ?

1) answered above
2) I already told you it has been proven you can survive 40days without food. How ignorant are you? http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-long-can-a-person-sur
3) (4) on ur list answered by the other quote on here
4) (5) Again start putting some evidence up. This is called philosophy for a reason. Start backing up what you say.
5) (6) Are you dumb? Have you studied the crusades? O wow! Dude the crusades were not religious manipulation. You are right, it does happen in some places today, but the crusades was an army sent out to silence a rebellion basically (correct me if I need to be more specific). There was no religious manipulation.

So, if God asked you to nuke the world, he has the right to. His creation, his decision. Like an artist who paints a 10m dollar painting, he can throw it away if he wants, burn, crush, or even nuke it if he feels like it.
If you are going to say this is wrong, then give some good reasons as to why.

[Naesala]

Which would you rather do: Let a person live a good life or kill him?

Make all the arguments you want, but just saying, if a good God exists, he made some pretty huge errors.

What if god is doing this to stop all pain and suffering? What if the person isn't going to live a good/happy life? What if after this all good people go to heaven (or equivalent) and the only ones who go to hell (or equivalent) are those who rightfully deserve it?

What if everyone goes to heaven?

Killing to stop suffering ? Come on. I saw better movies with apochalyptical ideas, like The chamber of Souls goes empty.
Why would you let a baby get birth to kill him next day ?
Where is the so called free will if you can tell me how my life will be ? Is free will an illusion ?

Eagle asked if it was better to let a good person live or die, and then said that no matter how many arguments I made God was making an error in his being good. This is the only reason I brought up those arguments because those would legitimately be arguments for nuking the world for good.
I don't get your first sentence at all.
Irrelevant to the point I was making, but since people are constantly being born (I believe every 5 seconds?) the apocalypse will have to hit at some point while there are babies. Unless there is no apocolypse/no god/irrelevant
Irrelevant again, what does this have to do with the questions I asked? Most of my questions were connected to the afterlife, which is where freewill ends and judgement begins.