Religious Dilemma

[northcity4]

Old trees it does matter though. I am not talking about morals. I am simply asking is there a reason someone should do as God says even if your ending is the same as someone who doesn't do as God says?
Are people just following God for heaven or would they still follow God without Heaven? If yes, then what for?

When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running it for the trophy. "Hey guys, there is no reward at the end of the race."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running for the exercise. "Hey guys, God said you will burn no calories if you run this race."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running for the fun of it. "Hey guys, this race is going to be hard, not fun, and most likely a waste of your time."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running...What I am trying to say is it is not INSINCERE to do something for a goal, but some goals are insincere such as Heaven or fear of Hell.
Is there a reason to do as God says if there is no reward for it or no meaning to it? That in my mind is like you manager asking you to come to work, but you won't get paid. Only reason I can think of is if you respect God enough...but does that matter if in the end you'll die.

I'd guess doing the right thing is an evolutionary trait that's in most humans to some degree so others will respect them.
Also you can do the right thing for your own happiness. If you ask what you gain from good behaviour, what do you lose? What do you gain and what do you lose from bad behaviour? Good behaviour typically gains more in both intrinsic and extrinsic ways.

DM I saw your edit...thank you.

Ok, so now we are in a world no Heaven or Hell/ no afterlife. You say we should do the right thing because if leads to the best possible life/it's something inherent. What do you say to those who get screwed for doing the right thing? When the pilgrims came the Indians helped that, but then the pilgrims took advantage of them. If God doesn't really care if you did something good and they thought there was a reward for their goodness, didn't they lose even more?

Also, are we all in agreement there must be an afterlife to have religion make sense? Or there must be some reward making it worthwhile?

[OldTrees]

Old trees it does matter though. I am not talking about morals. I am simply asking is there a reason someone should do as God says even if your ending is the same as someone who doesn't do as God says?
Are people just following God for heaven or would they still follow God without Heaven? If yes, then what for?

When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running it for the trophy. "Hey guys, there is no reward at the end of the race."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running for the exercise. "Hey guys, God said you will burn no calories if you run this race."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running for the fun of it. "Hey guys, this race is going to be hard, not fun, and most likely a waste of your time."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running...What I am trying to say is it is not INSINCERE to do something for a goal, but some goals are insincere such as Heaven or fear of Hell.
Is there a reason to do as God says if there is no reward for it or no meaning to it? That in my mind is like you manager asking you to come to work, but you won't get paid. Only reason I can think of is if you respect God enough...but does that matter if in the end you'll die.

People follow a moral code because they believe it is the correct answer to "What ought one do?". Religion claims that what gods commands happens to be what is moral to do. Therefore people obey god because they believe it is the correct answer to "What ought one do?".

The Jews did not need the concept of a heaven prior to its addition to the doctrine.

[northcity4]

Old trees it does matter though. I am not talking about morals. I am simply asking is there a reason someone should do as God says even if your ending is the same as someone who doesn't do as God says?
Are people just following God for heaven or would they still follow God without Heaven? If yes, then what for?

When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running it for the trophy. "Hey guys, there is no reward at the end of the race."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running for the exercise. "Hey guys, God said you will burn no calories if you run this race."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running for the fun of it. "Hey guys, this race is going to be hard, not fun, and most likely a waste of your time."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running...What I am trying to say is it is not INSINCERE to do something for a goal, but some goals are insincere such as Heaven or fear of Hell.
Is there a reason to do as God says if there is no reward for it or no meaning to it? That in my mind is like you manager asking you to come to work, but you won't get paid. Only reason I can think of is if you respect God enough...but does that matter if in the end you'll die.

People follow a moral code because they believe it is the correct answer to "What ought one do?". Religion claims that what gods commands happens to be what is moral to do. Therefore people obey god because they believe it is the correct answer to "What ought one do?".

The Jews did not need the concept of a heaven prior to its addition to the doctrine.

I see what you mean with that "what one ought to do."

I tend to disagree a little. It's most likely that their version of "what one ought to do" originally had Heaven some where in the meaning.

[kimham8a]

Old trees it does matter though. I am not talking about morals. I am simply asking is there a reason someone should do as God says even if your ending is the same as someone who doesn't do as God says?
Are people just following God for heaven or would they still follow God without Heaven? If yes, then what for?

When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running it for the trophy. "Hey guys, there is no reward at the end of the race."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running for the exercise. "Hey guys, God said you will burn no calories if you run this race."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running for the fun of it. "Hey guys, this race is going to be hard, not fun, and most likely a waste of your time."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running...What I am trying to say is it is not INSINCERE to do something for a goal, but some goals are insincere such as Heaven or fear of Hell.
Is there a reason to do as God says if there is no reward for it or no meaning to it? That in my mind is like you manager asking you to come to work, but you won't get paid. Only reason I can think of is if you respect God enough...but does that matter if in the end you'll die.

People follow a moral code because they believe it is the correct answer to "What ought one do?". Religion claims that what gods commands happens to be what is moral to do. Therefore people obey god because they believe it is the correct answer to "What ought one do?".

The Jews did not need the concept of a heaven prior to its addition to the doctrine.

I see what you mean with that "what one ought to do."

I tend to disagree a little. It's most likely that their version of "what one ought to do" originally had Heaven some where in the meaning.

Or you ought to do what you ought to do for the respect of others.

Old trees it does matter though. I am not talking about morals. I am simply asking is there a reason someone should do as God says even if your ending is the same as someone who doesn't do as God says?
Are people just following God for heaven or would they still follow God without Heaven? If yes, then what for?

When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running it for the trophy. "Hey guys, there is no reward at the end of the race."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running for the exercise. "Hey guys, God said you will burn no calories if you run this race."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running for the fun of it. "Hey guys, this race is going to be hard, not fun, and most likely a waste of your time."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running...What I am trying to say is it is not INSINCERE to do something for a goal, but some goals are insincere such as Heaven or fear of Hell.
Is there a reason to do as God says if there is no reward for it or no meaning to it? That in my mind is like you manager asking you to come to work, but you won't get paid. Only reason I can think of is if you respect God enough...but does that matter if in the end you'll die.

I'd guess doing the right thing is an evolutionary trait that's in most humans to some degree so others will respect them.
Also you can do the right thing for your own happiness. If you ask what you gain from good behaviour, what do you lose? What do you gain and what do you lose from bad behaviour? Good behaviour typically gains more in both intrinsic and extrinsic ways.

DM I saw your edit...thank you.

Ok, so now we are in a world no Heaven or Hell/ no afterlife. You say we should do the right thing because if leads to the best possible life/it's something inherent. What do you say to those who get screwed for doing the right thing? When the pilgrims came the Indians helped that, but then the pilgrims took advantage of them. If God doesn't really care if you did something good and they thought there was a reward for their goodness, didn't they lose even more?

Also, are we all in agreement there must be an afterlife to have religion make sense? Or there must be some reward making it worthwhile?

Those who got screwed got screwed. But I think those who did what they shouldn't got screwed often enough so that being a good person has its merits.

[OldTrees]

Old trees it does matter though. I am not talking about morals. I am simply asking is there a reason someone should do as God says even if your ending is the same as someone who doesn't do as God says?
Are people just following God for heaven or would they still follow God without Heaven? If yes, then what for?

When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running it for the trophy. "Hey guys, there is no reward at the end of the race."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running for the exercise. "Hey guys, God said you will burn no calories if you run this race."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running for the fun of it. "Hey guys, this race is going to be hard, not fun, and most likely a waste of your time."
When I run a race, why am I doing it? Let's assume I am running...What I am trying to say is it is not INSINCERE to do something for a goal, but some goals are insincere such as Heaven or fear of Hell.
Is there a reason to do as God says if there is no reward for it or no meaning to it? That in my mind is like you manager asking you to come to work, but you won't get paid. Only reason I can think of is if you respect God enough...but does that matter if in the end you'll die.

People follow a moral code because they believe it is the correct answer to "What ought one do?". Religion claims that what gods commands happens to be what is moral to do. Therefore people obey god because they believe it is the correct answer to "What ought one do?".

The Jews did not need the concept of a heaven prior to its addition to the doctrine.

I see what you mean with that "what one ought to do."

I tend to disagree a little. It's most likely that their version of "what one ought to do" originally had Heaven some where in the meaning.

Or you ought to do what you ought to do for the respect of others.

The crossed out part is not universally held and thus reduced the obviousness of the veracity of the statement.

[northcity4]

Let's assume the people who screwed the other people had a great life before hand. I understand that mean people usually live with/are around mean people. Let's assume they were not.

[OldTrees]

Let's assume the people who screwed the other people had a great life before hand. I understand that mean people usually live with/are around mean people. Let's assume they were not.

What is the relevance?

[northcity4]

Let's assume the people who screwed the other people had a great life before hand. I understand that mean people usually live with/are around mean people. Let's assume they were not.

What is the relevance?

To show that in THIS scenario, being good does not always have it's merits. Nice guys finish last basically.

[OldTrees]

Let's assume the people who screwed the other people had a great life before hand. I understand that mean people usually live with/are around mean people. Let's assume they were not.

What is the relevance?

To show that in THIS scenario, being good does not always have it's merits. Nice guys finish last basically.

Oh. I thought I had addressed this already. A moral person is good for the sake of being good. Other factors are irrelevant to a moral individual.

[northcity4]

I agree. My only problem is that as life goes on and the people who start to do the things they want to do are not getting punished and I get walked over...not so easy. To me, to stay moral requires a lot of sacrifice and to most people, the reward of being moral just to be able to say your a moral person will seem less and less ideal as the reality that being moral has no bearing on life after this. Like monks in China...some doubt that there is an afterlife. You think they'll continue being moral for the sake of morality? While this could still be a possibility, I doubt it will continue. I don't think being moral the sake of being moral even means anything if there is no afterlife. That's like telling me to continue working even though I will no longer get paid. That's where we hit a dilemma

[OldTrees]

One of the core pillars of my psyche is being moral because it is my moral duty to be moral. I have come to realize that there is insufficient knowledge/information in this world for someone to know what is moral. Therefore verifying the correct moral code is an impossible task. Despite my moral duty demanding an impossible task I am still bound by that moral duty. There is no reward for being true to this duty. Only the suffering from trying the impossible. Despite this, I am still bound by my moral duty.

I do not know if you can make a bleaker example than mine. Yet in my example one is still bound by that moral duty that it takes merely reason to observe.

[kimham8a]

Let's assume the people who screwed the other people had a great life before hand. I understand that mean people usually live with/are around mean people. Let's assume they were not.

What is the relevance?

To show that in THIS scenario, being good does not always have it's merits. Nice guys finish last basically.

Ah, but they don't always, and maybe nice guys finish or have finished ahead more often than behind. (continuing the purely evolutionary standpoint)