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Offline SpineAppleTopic starter

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Questions about life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41541.msg514847#msg514847
« on: June 25, 2012, 06:53:38 am »
Why are we living beings? What makes us alive? What is the true -life- in us? Now some people think it's really as simple as "Well, that's because the brain makes you process things around you and it makes you think and react and so on". I say yes, fine. But what really makes the difference between a corpse with a -working- but switched off brain, and a living person? Other people may say "That's the soul. It has been proven that a person loses 21 grams right at the moment of death etc." but that's not a complete answer either. What really happens during an abortion? When does one actually start living? What IS really living? What is the value of life? What measures one's worthiness of life? And finally, what made -us- instead of fish or grasshoppers start a society? Put work on things everyone can use?
I know those are a lot of questions so you don't have to answer all of them if you don't want to.
Also, I'm sure that not all of you will have the same opinion on this one, so what do -you- think and why?
There is no "Big Crunch". The very idea of it is idiotic. If the expansion of the universe, caused by the big bang, is, in fact, what causes the flow of time, how would the big bang happen in the first place, without the universe expanding, thus time not flowing in any particular direction?

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Re: Questions about life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41541.msg514868#msg514868
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2012, 08:21:34 am »
Life is a word used to symbolize many different concepts with contradicting definitions.


When does one start living?
Most will agree on what "when" "does" and "start" mean. However that leaves "one" and "living". We could use the concept of individual for "one". In which case we are left with a problem. Individual what? If we are talking about a 4 dimensional being then we can use the length of the temporal dimension as "life". However this still doesn't answer the question of where we are arbitrarily drawing the boundary around this being. The "state of mind" has a shorter "life" than the "personality" which has a shorter "life" than the "organic machine" which has a shorter "life" than the "body" which has a shorter "life" than the "atoms".


I personally believe
One owns one's life. I believe one's life has a value, like most property, equivalent to the subjective value the owner places on that life.
I believe one's life is judged based on how well one fulfilled one's duty to do as one ought.
Homo Sapiens formed a society due to many causes:
1) Random Mutations + Natural Selection resulting in the below factors
2) The ability to foresee further into the future. (in contrast to dogs)
3) An intellectual arms race. (observable in some other apes)
4) Fine dexterity.
5) Sexual selection for intelligence. (good enough genes to waste food on brain power and still survive)
6) Group vs Group warfare. (rather than everyone for themselves. Partially a consequence of vulnerable offspring.)
7) Division of labor
...


PS: What are you asking? Your questions seem scattered.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 08:23:20 am by OldTrees »
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Offline SpineAppleTopic starter

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Re: Questions about life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41541.msg515185#msg515185
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2012, 08:49:41 am »
Life is a word used to symbolize many different concepts with contradicting definitions.


When does one start living?
Most will agree on what "when" "does" and "start" mean. However that leaves "one" and "living". We could use the concept of individual for "one". In which case we are left with a problem. Individual what? If we are talking about a 4 dimensional being then we can use the length of the temporal dimension as "life". However this still doesn't answer the question of where we are arbitrarily drawing the boundary around this being. The "state of mind" has a shorter "life" than the "personality" which has a shorter "life" than the "organic machine" which has a shorter "life" than the "body" which has a shorter "life" than the "atoms".


I personally believe
One owns one's life. I believe one's life has a value, like most property, equivalent to the subjective value the owner places on that life.
I believe one's life is judged based on how well one fulfilled one's duty to do as one ought.
Homo Sapiens formed a society due to many causes:
1) Random Mutations + Natural Selection resulting in the below factors
2) The ability to foresee further into the future. (in contrast to dogs)
3) An intellectual arms race. (observable in some other apes)
4) Fine dexterity.
5) Sexual selection for intelligence. (good enough genes to waste food on brain power and still survive)
6) Group vs Group warfare. (rather than everyone for themselves. Partially a consequence of vulnerable offspring.)
7) Division of labor
...


PS: What are you asking? Your questions seem scattered.
I had a lot of questions but they are too connected to start a thread for each and every single one of them, so I decided to make just one thread and ask for people's opinions.
By the way, how are you sure that the 4th dimension is time? It doesn't really make sense in a way, because Einstein proved there are what, like, 9? 12 Dimensions?
If the 0th, 1st, 2nd and 3rd are the only spatial dimensions and from the 4th onwards they begin changing in properties than I don't see how Einstein could have analyzed all of them without us even being close to knowing what they're all about? And the 4th dimension being a temporal dimension and all the rest being spatial wouldn't make sense. But I've kind of gotten way off subject here.
There is no "Big Crunch". The very idea of it is idiotic. If the expansion of the universe, caused by the big bang, is, in fact, what causes the flow of time, how would the big bang happen in the first place, without the universe expanding, thus time not flowing in any particular direction?

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Re: Questions about life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41541.msg515190#msg515190
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2012, 09:08:50 am »
Time isn't a spatial dimension. However, it is called the fourth dimension because in spacetime models we model time as a fourth spatial dimension because it fits mathematically. Like anything in physics, it is just a model and does not describe what really happens. Other models do similar things by modelling other concepts as dimensions. Note that calling time the '4th' dimension is simply a matter of convenience; it would be no less valid if we called it the 2nd dimension and width the 4th (of course, that wouldn't make sense outside the context of spacetime).
[/offtopic]
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Re: Questions about life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41541.msg515192#msg515192
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2012, 09:12:59 am »
Einstein only really proved a fourth dimension, and started working on a fifth. [/offtopic]

Just another question, think it is related to this so I wont make another post, if there is life on other planets, when is it "intelligent" life? (Not that we have much on Earth  :P)
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Offline memimemi

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Re: Questions about life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41541.msg515207#msg515207
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2012, 11:02:12 am »
Why are we living beings?


I'm not sure I understand the question.  I suppose, on the grandest scale, the most reasonable explanation of why we are alive is the Anthropic Principle: in a universe wherein we weren't alive, this question would be meaningless.

Quote
What makes us alive? What is the true -life- in us?

Metabolic processes?  Motion?  Interaction with non-self entities?  As far as I'm concerned, "life" is not an either/or concept (Dead/Alive [like kitties!]); rather, it's a continuum.  The only conceivable object in the universe that cannot be considered alive to any degree would be a single atom, at absolute rest, at 0 degrees Kelvin, in a vaccuum.  At the other end of the spectrum would be fully biological entities such as ourselves.

Quote
Now some people think it's really as simple as "Well, that's because the brain makes you process things around you and it makes you think and react and so on". I say yes, fine. But what really makes the difference between a corpse with a -working- but switched off brain, and a living person?

I've never heard of a corpse with a working brain.  Once the parasympathetic nervous system shuts down, we are defined as "dead."  If there is no brain activity, the metabolic processes shut down.  So, I would say, the difference between your hypothetical corpse with a working brain, and a living person, is that one is a fictional entity.

Quote
Other people may say "That's the soul. It has been proven that a person loses 21 grams right at the moment of death etc." but that's not a complete answer either.

They may say that, indeed.  I could also say that we only exist because the Great Unicorn decreed it to be so.  It's amazing what ridiculous claims become tenable, once you remove the need for falsifiable evidence.  The <ahem> study to which you refer has proven faulty - the results have not been replicable by other, independant observers.

 
Quote
What really happens during an abortion? When does one actually start living?

Ummm... a fetus is removed from the uterus of a pregnant woman?  Radicals take aim at the doctor?  I'm not sure that I understand the first question.

As to the second - we're somewhat alive, and somewhat us, even before our fathers get drunk enough to settle for our mothers, or vice versa.  In our daddy's testes and our momma's ovaries, "we" are perfectly alive, perfectly viable, batches of chromosomes.  When sperm meets ovum, we become perfectly alive zygotes.  When those germline zygotes' cells start differentiating into organs, we become perfectly alive fetuses.

After we're birthed, we're considered to be fully alive, human beings.  I would argue, however, that infants and toddlers aren't even fully human yet - usually, it's not until we're 7 or 8 years old that we develop a full theory of mind, with abstract, conceptual reasoning - the hallmarks of being fully human.

 
Quote
What IS really living? What is the value of life? What measures one's worthiness of life?

Too many metrics.  Life's value, in strict terms, is the propagation of more life - whether by breeding; supporting parasites; feeding bacteria (of which we are a colony organism); or being a nutritious snack for a passing leopard.  Your genes don't care about any abstract measures of worth; they care only about replication and propagation.

Life has no intrinsic value - it's a process, not a commodity.

Quote
And finally, what made -us- instead of fish or grasshoppers start a society?

Theory of Mind, mixed with opposible thumbs, with a smattering of language.  Of course, grasshoppers can swarm in the billions, and fish school in the thousands - are these not societies?  Your question, without defining society, is at best meaningless.  Wolves have societies; they're just not human societies.  Heck, even single-celled bacteria form colonies that react differently to the outside world, as a whole, than any individual member therein would.  So, if society is defined as a group of individuals working together for the greater good of any individual member, I think you'll find that societies are the rule in nature, rather than an exception reserved for us.  Especially interesting are the societies of birds - theft, betrayal, paranoia, love, family, architecture, altruism... none of these traits are foreign to your average murder of crows.

To claim that a society that isn't like ours isn't a society is like claiming that someone speaking a language you don't understand isn't really speaking.

Quote
Put work on things everyone can use?

???

Quote
I know those are a lot of questions so you don't have to answer all of them if you don't want to.
Also, I'm sure that not all of you will have the same opinion on this one, so what do -you- think and why?

There you go.  I'm pretty sure that my outlook meshes pretty well with the current state of modern biology.


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Re: Questions about life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41541.msg515679#msg515679
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2012, 08:58:59 am »
Time isn't a spatial dimension. However, it is called the fourth dimension because in spacetime models we model time as a fourth spatial dimension because it fits mathematically. Like anything in physics, it is just a model and does not describe what really happens. Other models do similar things by modelling other concepts as dimensions. Note that calling time the '4th' dimension is simply a matter of convenience; it would be no less valid if we called it the 2nd dimension and width the 4th (of course, that wouldn't make sense outside the context of spacetime).
[/offtopic]
Y r ther s0 mennie smart ppl in here herp derp

But really, now, I didn't get a word out of this.What's this about models? Also, spacetime simply doesn't make sense. If we do travel faster than the speed of light andeverything behind us will be at a stall, but everything before us would move faster. In fact, it should be 2 times faster, am I correct?
So, really, what you're doing while moving at the speed of light isn't really travelling through time. More like seeing events before/after you were supposed to see them. It doesn't make time flow faster/slower. Also, I'm really wondering what would it look like to others if you were to travel at the speed of light?
That would reflect 2 times as much photons as it would from the front side of your body... So maybe you would leave trail of white glow? Also, if there was no air resistance you would burn to death from all the light absorbed by your body.... Unless you are covered by mirrors. That's what would happen IMO. Any suggestions on that? (I know I've gotten way off-topic, but I've gotten the answers I needed already, so who cares =|)
There is no "Big Crunch". The very idea of it is idiotic. If the expansion of the universe, caused by the big bang, is, in fact, what causes the flow of time, how would the big bang happen in the first place, without the universe expanding, thus time not flowing in any particular direction?

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Re: Questions about life. https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=41541.msg515680#msg515680
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2012, 08:59:57 am »
There is no "Big Crunch". The very idea of it is idiotic. If the expansion of the universe, caused by the big bang, is, in fact, what causes the flow of time, how would the big bang happen in the first place, without the universe expanding, thus time not flowing in any particular direction?

 

anything
blarg: