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Offline Zso_Zso

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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1039691#msg1039691
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2013, 04:46:01 pm »
IMHO, the act of killing a virtual entity in a game, cannot be considered immoral as long as that entity is not self-conscious -- and so far the level of AI in current games is quite far from that. However, with increasing computational power, complexity and AI research advancement, sooner or later we will need to reconsider that status.

As for the other angle of feeling better or worse yourself depending on the actions you took in your game environment, that is a much more complex psychological question. For some people, playing violent games and killing in a game could be a form of venting anger piled up in the persons real life -- in which case its a better solution than venting that rage in real life.

On the other hand, some gamers might get so immersed in a video game fantasy world, that starts to cloud their judgement, confuse their mind and lead to real life violence. This angle is taken very seriously by some companies, e.g. I read an article that Sony has backed down with plans to release VR-helmets for PS3/PS4 consoles that they already developed in prototype stage for that reason. The company lawyers were concerned that consumers may start suing them that the helmets could cause psychological damage to players due to too high level of immersion in virtual reality.

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Offline Belthus

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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1040477#msg1040477
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2013, 06:59:05 pm »
Not to be rude, but what evidence?  this, says otherwise.

See the following literature review:

Anderson, C. A., & Warburton, W. A. (2012). The impact of violent video games: An overview. Chapter in W. Warburton & D. Braunstein (Eds.) Growing Up Fast and Furious: Reviewing the Impacts of Violent and Sexualised Media on Children, (pp. 56-84). Annandale, NSW, Australia: The Federation Press.

The discussion of video game violence and aggressive behavior begins on p. 61.



Quote
Or, perhaps, we can just look at the constantly lowering rates of violent crime, and recognize that if there were a direct causal link between video games and violence/antisocial behaviour (hereafter V/ASB), there ought to be a spike, starting with my generation (yep, I'm old enough to remember the first home consoles) - the first one for whom video games were an at-home, anytime experience.

Are you suggesting that video game violence is the only factor affecting violent crime? I certainly am not. Or that all other factors have held constant during those years? I think you can see how something as complicated as human behavior can be influenced by multiple factors, and those factors would fluctuate over time, so any simple observation such as the crime rate going up or down is close to useless.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 07:03:09 pm by Belthus »

Offline memimemiTopic starter

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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1040684#msg1040684
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2013, 08:29:21 am »
IMHO, the act of killing a virtual entity in a game, cannot be considered immoral as long as that entity is not self-conscious -- and so far the level of AI in current games is quite far from that. However, with increasing computational power, complexity and AI research advancement, sooner or later we will need to reconsider that status.

This scans well, by me.  It seems we are in agreement that, as silly or flakey as it may seem at first glance, this question is one which will only become more important, as our ability to emulate or simulate life approaches the point where it is indistinguishable from 'actual' life.


Quote
As for the other angle of feeling better or worse yourself depending on the actions you took in your game environment, that is a much more complex psychological question. For some people, playing violent games and killing in a game could be a form of venting anger piled up in the persons real life -- in which case its a better solution than venting that rage in real life.

This is as much an argument from common sense as its inverse, that games can be a causal factor in such feelings.  That's why common sense is such a poor guideline for ethical (and by extension, political) action:it can often be used by any side of an issue, to support any number of contradictory conclusions.  But more on that later.  Note that my disagreement is not necessarily with the results, but rather the methodology of such an argument.

Quote
On the other hand, some gamers might get so immersed in a video game fantasy world, that starts to cloud their judgement, confuse their mind and lead to real life violence. This angle is taken very seriously by some companies, e.g. I read an article that Sony has backed down with plans to release VR-helmets for PS3/PS4 consoles that they already developed in prototype stage for that reason. The company lawyers were concerned that consumers may start suing them that the helmets could cause psychological damage to players due to too high level of immersion in virtual reality.

A lawyer's fear of litigation seems, IMHO, to be more a pragmatic than an ethical stance.  Being unfamiliar with this specific case, I can't comment on it directly - but if it is as you describe, it seems a tangental point i.e. related, but not necessarily relevant.


See the following literature review:


The discussion of video game violence and aggressive behavior begins on p. 61.


Thank you for the link; it provides a great deal to explore, directly related to the topic at hand.

Spoiler for critique:
  Some points about this metastudy:

i) the discussion of video game violence and agressive behaviour begins not on page 61, but rather on page 56, paragraph 1 - as is to be expected in any published metastudy.  This is just a point of order; I'm not claiming that it validates, nor invalidates, the rest of the study.

ii) An interesting note (and the reason for the spoiler tag, as this goes outside the scope of the main thread), is the author's passing reference to what I would deem a very pertinent point, and one which is not explored in any depth: the gender gap. 

Quote
Playing is heaviest in the 11–14
age group, with boys outplaying girls more than 2.5 hours to 1. A recent
study suggests that around 99 per cent of American boys play video
games, along with 94 per cent of girls (Lenhart et al, 2008). It is common
for US children and adolescents to play more than 20 hours per week
and it is not uncommon for males to play 40 hours or more per week
(Bailey, West & Anderson, 2010).

This 2.5:1 ratio is more important than the authors seem to think it.  In fact, this figure informs the rest of the article, without being acknowledged.  Consider that the games used as exemplars of antisociality are taken exclusively from traditionally male, or masculine-themed gaming environments (CoD, GTA).  I don't think myself particulary guilty of oversimplifying, nor of being disingenuous, when I point out that this particular fact is glossed over as though irrelevant, for the rest of the article.  Were it explored, and demonstrated as irrelevant, I would have a much easier time swallowing the rest of the paper.  Sadly, it isn't; and this is my first qualm with the methodology - a failure to account for a large statistical difference in gender roles in re: video game playing time, as well as gaming choices doesn't prove a gendered bias in the researchers.  It does, however, show a complete disregard for the notion that one must account for one's own biases, and explore/eliminate them as a precursor to any scientific endeavour - especially one as murky as a metastudy, in as undefined a field as psychology.

Once again - it's not proof that the researchers were wrong; it is, however, evidence that their methodology *may* be biased.  I will touch upon this issue again in a bit.

iii)  Begging the question.  The paper's authors presume the reader is not only aware of, but in agreement with, their own definitions of 'anti-social' behaviour.  I will admit to a level of ignorance; there may be a widely-accepted definition within the mental health sciences of which I'm simply not aware.

Quote
Before turning to the negative effects of violent video games
however, it is important to stress that video games can have many
helpful benefits. Here are just a few.

'Before turning to the negative effects of (part of A) however, it is important to stress that (wider category 'A') can have many helpful benefits.'  Not only is the condescending tone apparent (but that could conceivably be my problem misreading, so I'll ignore it as an argument against this point), but also there is a question of relevance: are the authors claiming that these benefits of the general category 'video game' are somehow negated by the addition of the (undefined) adjective 'violent?'  If so, by what mechanism?  If not, then how is this to be read as relevant information - especially when there is no comparison of the deleterious effects of 'violent video games' to the positive effects of 'video games?'  For example: if the authors' conclusions are true, how are they mitigated/bolstered by these 'helpful benefits?'  Is later antisocial behaviour somehow enabled by the effects of pain management?  Somehow mitigated thereby? By what mechanisms?

As a (admittedly exaggerated for effect) counterexample:  I could attempt to argue that being Jewish is antisocial.  If I don't tell you what qualifies or does not qualify as antisocial/prosocial, as relates to my point, then you can't argue against it (post-facto definitions are a great way to sidestep the need for reasoning!) - especially if I can convince you that it's not Jewishness that provides the problem, but rather that it's just, say, Talmudic Judaism.  Were that my argument, would adding 'before turning to the negative effects of Talmudic Judaism however, it's important to stress that Judaism can have many helpful benefits' in any way bolster my argument?  Especially when, after providing a list of demonstrated benefits of Judaism, I never in any way relate them to my main point, assumed from the outset of my argument, to Talmudic Judaism specifically?

Or, more simply.  Squares are bad; here is a list of the benefits of quadrilaterals.  How does one relate to the other? 

Another point of interest: we're treated to a Wiki'd list of sales figures for 3 games franchises as supporting evidence of the prevelance of (assumed) anti-social content (remember, anti-social is NEVER defined, throughout this article).  Yet, when we get to the subsection on 'pro-social behaviour' we're not treated to anything like a named game franchise, to compare the content. 

Assumptions: 'Anti-social' is self-evident.  This one, I'll allow to slide, with the good faith assumption that there is a strict definition of 'anti-social' used in psychological literature with which I'm simply unfamiliar.  CoD, GTA, and WoW, specifically, are exemplars of 'antisocial' video games.  <-- With this point, I will disagree, conditional upon familiarizing myself with what definition of 'antisocial' we're using.  An unexplored relationship exists between the subcategory Aa ('Talmudic' Judaism, 'violent' videogames, squares) and category A (Judaism, videogames, quadrilaterals) - and providing examples of the most popular forms of Aa is a form of evidence, one which isn't required when asserting points about A.  In fact, simply recognizing that A exists is somehow enough to prove that Aa fits my presupposed conclusions about it.

I assert that squares are evil: look at how good parallelograms are.  Squares are different from parallelograms.  Ergo, squares are evil.  QED.

I would be more charitable in my analysis if this read like anything more than a bunch of cherry-picked facts.  Not to say there's no validity to the argument; rather, there's no actual argument presented - the conclusion is simply assumed, and facts are thrown at it until some stick, which are then presumed to be evidence.

iv) Weaseling.  'Unfortunately, excessive video game
playing, especially of violent video games, has the potential to impact
children in a number of negative ways.'

Whence comes this notion of 'excess?'  Where is the line between 'excessive' and 'NOT-excessive?'  We're never told.  The entire section of 'Video Game Addiction' amounts to an anecdote, an argument from popularity (inclusion in the DSM =/= factual evidence; or did 'hysteria' suddenly stop being a thing, simply because it doesn't appear in this version?  Was it somehow more real or verifiable, simply because the DSM-I included it?), and more frequent references to 'excessive' play - which is meaningless unless the difference between 'excessive' and 'NOT-excessive' is defined.

The entire 'Attention Deficits' section is rubbish, plain and simple.  We can claim all the stastically-significant links we want between observed ADHD syptoms and (still undefined!!!!!!!one!111) 'pathological' play - if those doing the observing aren't in any real way qualified to make a medical diagnosis, their observations can (and should be) discounted.  Even more telling is that the authors are willing to quote the DSM above, and yet ignore the fact that a diagnosis of ADHD, according to the DSM-IV (and presumably the upcoming DSM-V), requires symptoms to have manifested consistently and habitually from before the age of 7 - at least a full year before the base cutoff ages of '8-18' from which the authors* draw their data!

(* one is tempted to use the term 'novelists,' by this point of the article.)

By the way, Anderson et al's 'belief' in an effect is not evidence.  Especially when the actual data says otherwise.

v) This is not a metastudy.  This is a rehashing of this.  Basically, we have the primary author quoting the work of the primary author, in order to provide evidence for the assumptions of the primary author.

Try this in the IEEE, Nature, or the JAMA.  There's probably a reason this was published in an online journal.  But, I suppose, I'm guilty of snark here, so moving on....

I did read the rest of the paper; unfortunately, nothing was added that in any way validates (or even addresses) the problems outlined above.  The conclusion naturally follows from the premises, simply because it's one of them!
Quote

Are you suggesting that video game violence is the only factor affecting violent crime? I certainly am not. Or that all other factors have held constant during those years? I think you can see how something as complicated as human behavior can be influenced by multiple factors, and those factors would fluctuate over time, so any simple observation such as the crime rate going up or down is close to useless.

No, I'm not suggesting that at all, any more than I'd suggest that sales figures are the only valid metric of cultural impact.  However, if we are to accept the premise 'video games can promote antisocial behaviour,' one prediction we can make is that there should be a strong correlation between the prevalence of violent video games and the prevalence of actual IRL violence.  This lack of evidence of one of the few predictions that can be made based on a supposed link between video games and V/ASB doesn't invalidate the point entirely; it does, however, weaken it greatly. 

If I suppose that the earth moves because magical fairies fart really hard while pushing against it, but can't show the methane they're presumed to leave, does it invalidate the magic fairy hypothesis?  No.  It just invalidates its use in describing the actual world around us, meaning it would remain hypothesis and not theory.  If gravitational lensing weren't observable, as predicted by special relativity, then relativity would remain a hypothesis instead of a theory.

Thank you for joining the discussion, Zso_Zso and Belthus!  I'm especially keen on the fact that so many perspectives can be brought to bear on this issue - a multidisciplinary approach seems sensible, for such a complex ethical quandry.

Aside: Belthus, I may have seemed harsh in the spoiler.  If you have other documentation to back up the claims presented therein which follow basic scientific, or at least philosophical, procedure, I'd be very interested in reading it.  I promise to do my best to be fair, even when I'm prone to snark.  My snark is addressed to the authors of the study, not the messenger who brought it to the table.
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Offline northcity4

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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1061965#msg1061965
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2013, 06:13:23 pm »
Could you help explain the antisocial part again? I am very quite interested in other parts of it.

Also, sorry if this has already been addressed: my view is video games are a 'violence/stress' reliever. Can't go shoot people in real life to get steam off, but doing it in a video game works great.
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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1061966#msg1061966
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2013, 06:17:11 pm »
Could you help explain the antisocial part again? I am very quite interested in other parts of it.

Also, sorry if this has already been addressed: my view is video games are a 'violence/stress' reliever. Can't go shoot people in real life to get steam off, but doing it in a video game works great.

So, if video games were not invented at all, would you be a serial killer shooting people in the streets? :-X
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Offline northcity4

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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1062064#msg1062064
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2013, 12:00:55 am »
No, but it is a method of relieving stress.
Have a bad day? Go and shoot ppl on a video game for an hour and you will feel better.

True though, video games have also made people crazy.

Without video games, I am sure people would have found other ways to relieve stress. Cops, for example, have a punching bag they use.
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