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Offline memimemiTopic starter

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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1035722#msg1035722
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2013, 04:34:03 pm »
Wow, glad to see so many responses!

ARTHANASIOS: While I agree that it's important to consider what a player does after the gaming is over, the evidence seems to suggest that there is no meaningful correlation between types of gaming and violent/antisocial behaviours IRL.  I was also quite purposely trying to avoid invoking any mention of a deity, as that has been sidetracking pretty much every thread in philosophy for the past little while - there's a whole religion section for such things.  I'm hoping we can stick to considerations of human ethics, on a human scale. 

I find the same empathic response to the plights of politicians and generals that you describe: it's hard enough to make those decisions in simulations, never mind when actual human lives are on the line.  The terrible calculus of triage....

Dm1321:  Do you know where the line lies, for you, between 'disposible' and 'human-like enough'?  Does it make a difference whether a given sprite/npc has a name?  A face?  A background story?  Are any, or perhaps all, of these necessary to cause you hesitation when considering morally ambiguous acts?  For me, I think it may be related to how directly resposible I, as the player, am for the situation.  I feel no remorse killing Covenant when playing Halo - they started the war, after all.  When wiping out a city I built, filled with 'people' I've worked to attract - it just seems different.

VanWinkle: Have you read Lombardo's book, The Lucifer Effect?  Do we become somehow less real (whatever that may mean), when we see only sprites instead of characters?  Is the opposite true - sprites are just sprites, and anthropomorphising them is dishonest and demeaning to what it means to be human?  Maybe somewhere in between?
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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1035724#msg1035724
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2013, 04:46:14 pm »
While the face and the name contribute to it (giving a higher level of closeness to the sprite) it does not matter to me as much as the story. For example, some guy has been in my team ever since the beginning -- but I know nothing of him, his name, or the like. All I know is the revealing bits that we get from his past while we progress through the game -- I'll be way less willing to let him die; firstly because his story has not been out yet, but also because I may have some empathy with the guy for what he does and the else.

The background story is really the only one "Important" enough to cause me to hesitate. If I just met someone and added him to my team, I would not hesitate to sacrifice him to keep another character (that I "know" better) alive. So basically, just the background story is fine -- the name, the face, just makes it become less abstract; it makes me hesitate more.

Offline VanWinkle

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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1035725#msg1035725
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2013, 04:56:47 pm »
Wow, glad to see so many responses!

[...]

VanWinkle: Have you read Lombardo's book, The Lucifer Effect?  Do we become somehow less real (whatever that may mean), when we see only sprites instead of characters?  Is the opposite true - sprites are just sprites, and anthropomorphising them is dishonest and demeaning to what it means to be human?  Maybe somewhere in between?

I think it's not about how real the player is. I think it's about where the game takes place. Like it's our mind that forms the shape of the character where our eye only recognizes mere pixel, what's happening on the screen is transformed into a game by our fantasy. The moments of selfreflection simply destroy the chimera of the game for a moment and pull you back into (another) reality. And for my fantasy is simply to thin to make me forget about the difference between life and sprite, i never felt guilty for "cruel" decisions while playing.
And that's what games are for, too: to explore ways, you would'nt walk under other conditions.

So far ... VanWinkle

P.S. hope I got that right, using a dictionary to write that.






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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1035727#msg1035727
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2013, 05:06:33 pm »
Quote from: OldTrees
However currently you are not morally obligated to feel guilty or abstain from destroying sims in the current game for their sake. Nor is it morally praiseworthy to abstain from feeling guilty or abstaining from destroying sims in the current game for their sake. However it might be morally praiseworthy to be the kind of person that would not destroy sims in the current game. (Note the switch from deontology to virtue ethics from the 2nd to 3rd sentence)

This seems, at first glance, to be an imminently reasonable take on the situation.  Would you care to expand on the bases for this conclusion?
Currently the sims are not sentient nor can they suffer. The ability to reason and the ability to suffer are two theories about what makes something have moral personhood (aka make them worthy of moral consideration for their own sake). Since I have been exposed to many theories about moral personhood and none of them considers the sims in the current games to have that trait, I can assume that they do not have moral personhood. (Although this argument creates a duty to continue to check for theories that would)

However now we get to the switch between the 2nd and 3rd sentences,

What we do is shaped by who we are and who we are is shaped by what we do. It might be morally praiseworthy to be the kind of person that does not consider torture/murder even in the case of simulated torture/murder. To that end it might be morally praiseworthy for us to not thoughtless act while playing games. A firm separation of reality and fiction is a useful barrier to this effect however not one that is impenetrable. If we act in game in a way that we would not consider morally justified to do outside of the game then we risk slowly becoming more similar to how we act in game. (vice versa of course)

Consider the question: What would you do in a IRL Zombie invasion? How would you stop the invasion?
Spoiler for open after answering the question:
Did you choose extermination or curing as the final response?
This question is indicative of your theoretical response to "monsters" IRL.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 05:08:20 pm by OldTrees »
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Offline memimemiTopic starter

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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1035737#msg1035737
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2013, 05:43:55 pm »

Currently the sims are not sentient nor can they suffer. The ability to reason and the ability to suffer are two theories about what makes something have moral personhood (aka make them worthy of moral consideration for their own sake). Since I have been exposed to many theories about moral personhood and none of them considers the sims in the current games to have that trait, I can assume that they do not have moral personhood. (Although this argument creates a duty to continue to check for theories that would)

How can we assume they're neither sentient, nor capable of suffering?  Is it due to a lack of complexity?  How would that differ from a flea, or a gnat?  Is it due to being algorithms following pre-programmed decision-making paths?  How would that differ from a materialist's view of mankind?  Is it a lack of 'moral personhood' that makes any and all player actions permissible?  Does a cat have 'moral personhood,' then? 



Quote

What we do is shaped by who we are and who we are is shaped by what we do. It might be morally praiseworthy to be the kind of person that does not consider torture/murder even in the case of simulated torture/murder. To that end it might be morally praiseworthy for us to not thoughtless act while playing games. A firm separation of reality and fiction is a useful barrier to this effect however not one that is impenetrable. If we act in game in a way that we would not consider morally justified to do outside of the game then we risk slowly becoming more similar to how we act in game. (vice versa of course)

If your first sentence is true, then the content of the game doesn't matter; what we're doing is pressing buttons, not calling the hordes of Attila's army names to provoke war.  We're sitting (usually) in place, not running about, shooting passers-by.  We're more likely to be using our powers to summon pizzas than to summon earthquakes.  Are you arguing that cracking a virtual whip isn't the same as cracking a physical one, yet can somehow become the same?  How?

Quote
Consider the question: What would you do in a IRL Zombie invasion? How would you stop the invasion?
Spoiler for open after answering the question:
Did you choose extermination or curing as the final response?
This question is indicative of your theoretical response to "monsters" IRL.

Spoiler for Hidden:
Unfair.  You didn't mention what sort of zombie invasion we're dealing with.  As a Romero/Fulci zombie fan, I can tell you that curing is not on the menu.  The question, rather, is whether survival of humanity requires co-operation, competition, or some mixture of the two - but rest assured, no matter the means, the only 'cure' for zombiism is the forcible separation of head from body.

And, you forgot to allow for my choice: escape.  I don't need to stop the invasion from killing everybody; I need to stop the invasion from killing ME.  As long as we're in a supernatural world, I'll just ride my interstellar unicorn to Proxima Centauri.


Things to ponder:  What, if any, effect does Mori's 'Uncanny Valley' have here?  Is there an ethical equivalent to this effect?

What does a goldfish have, that a sim doesn't, that makes for a justifiably different moral state?  A gerbil?  A lemur?
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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1035820#msg1035820
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2013, 10:19:42 pm »

What does a goldfish have, that a sim doesn't, that makes for a justifiably different moral state?  A gerbil?  A lemur?

Speaking just for myself -- a beating heart.

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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1035893#msg1035893
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2013, 04:18:58 am »

Currently the sims are not sentient nor can they suffer. The ability to reason and the ability to suffer are two theories about what makes something have moral personhood (aka make them worthy of moral consideration for their own sake). Since I have been exposed to many theories about moral personhood and none of them considers the sims in the current games to have that trait, I can assume that they do not have moral personhood. (Although this argument creates a duty to continue to check for theories that would)

How can we assume they're neither sentient, nor capable of suffering?  Is it due to a lack of complexity?  How would that differ from a flea, or a gnat?  Is it due to being algorithms following pre-programmed decision-making paths?  How would that differ from a materialist's view of mankind?  Is it a lack of 'moral personhood' that makes any and all player actions permissible?  Does a cat have 'moral personhood,' then? 
A bacterium is much more complex than a unit in a game like Civ or Sims. In fact the protein synthesis is probably more complex than those units.
Whether Cats have moral personhood is debatable. Obviously they can suffer. They are intelligent enough that I cannot tell if they are sentient or not. Thus I treat them as if they had 'moral personhood'.

Quote
What we do is shaped by who we are and who we are is shaped by what we do. It might be morally praiseworthy to be the kind of person that does not consider torture/murder even in the case of simulated torture/murder. To that end it might be morally praiseworthy for us to not thoughtless act while playing games. A firm separation of reality and fiction is a useful barrier to this effect however not one that is impenetrable. If we act in game in a way that we would not consider morally justified to do outside of the game then we risk slowly becoming more similar to how we act in game. (vice versa of course)

If your first sentence is true, then the content of the game doesn't matter; what we're doing is pressing buttons, not calling the hordes of Attila's army names to provoke war.  We're sitting (usually) in place, not running about, shooting passers-by.  We're more likely to be using our powers to summon pizzas than to summon earthquakes.  Are you arguing that cracking a virtual whip isn't the same as cracking a physical one, yet can somehow become the same?  How?
Some play a game by pressing buttons and seeing lights change on a screen. Some play a game by picking options and seeing consequences. Some play a game by taunting an enemy to provoke war. Some play a game by killing to get an objective. Some play a game where they get an objective by killing.

Our perspective, intent and actions while playing a game alter how and in what way it can affect us.


Quote
Consider the question: What would you do in a IRL Zombie invasion? How would you stop the invasion?
Spoiler for open after answering the question:
Did you choose extermination or curing as the final response?
This question is indicative of your theoretical response to "monsters" IRL.

Spoiler for Hidden:
Unfair.  You didn't mention what sort of zombie invasion we're dealing with.  As a Romero/Fulci zombie fan, I can tell you that curing is not on the menu.  The question, rather, is whether survival of humanity requires co-operation, competition, or some mixture of the two - but rest assured, no matter the means, the only 'cure' for zombiism is the forcible separation of head from body.

And, you forgot to allow for my choice: escape.  I don't need to stop the invasion from killing everybody; I need to stop the invasion from killing ME.  As long as we're in a supernatural world, I'll just ride my interstellar unicorn to Proxima Centauri.


Things to ponder:  What, if any, effect does Mori's 'Uncanny Valley' have here?  Is there an ethical equivalent to this effect?

What does a goldfish have, that a sim doesn't, that makes for a justifiably different moral state?  A gerbil?  A lemur?
Spoiler for Hidden:
I did not tell you the kind of invasion because the test was to see if you would treat it as taught by games(zombies are unredeemable monsters) or if you would not be so hasty to judge. You be your own judge.

Merely escaping would be a bad ending.

I hope uncanny valley does not have an effect here. We probably should not let discomfort affect our moral intuitions/ethical conclusions.

At this time? A goldfish can sense while a sim is closer to a rock moved by a programmed crane (the crane is the game). Whether a goldfish has 'moral personhood' is debatable. It would depend on whether suffering or sentience was the better metric.
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Offline memimemiTopic starter

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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1035933#msg1035933
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2013, 05:27:27 am »


A bacterium is much more complex than a unit in a game like Civ or Sims. In fact the protein synthesis is probably more complex than those units.
Whether Cats have moral personhood is debatable. Obviously they can suffer. They are intelligent enough that I cannot tell if they are sentient or not. Thus I treat them as if they had 'moral personhood'.


So, then, complexity is our main criterion as to whether we postulate sentience, intelligence, and/or the capability to suffer, when considering a life-form radically different from our own?

Though I agree that a bacterium is far more complex than the sum total of all of my sims put together, I'm not sure whether this point holds as much relevancy as you seem to be saying. 

From a systems point of view, the gap isn't that huge: a bacterium seeks energy (say, phosphates in a petri dish); grows to equilibrium point for its environment (sends intra-colonial chemical signals to stop growth, as energy limits are neared); runs on simple algorithms, expressed through the manufacture of amino acids, written in the simple language of DNA (RNA, in some few cases); and, finally, does so without any (presumably) 'knowledge' or 'awareness' of the mitochondria, organelles, and other constituents of its limited 'selfdom.'  Goes without saying, it's even less aware of the fundemental forces of physics, which, at base level, provide the very possibility, as well as the means, of its existence.

Functionally, this varies very little from a sim.  I'll stick specifically to SimCity in this example, though I'm sure analogous examples are readily availible. 

A Sim seeks energy (say, Simoleans provided by good jobs in a city); will breed/immigrate to an equilibrium point (triggers delapidation/unemployment events, as limits are reached); runs on simple algorithms, expressed through the motion of pixels on a display, written in a simple binary machine language; and, finally, does so without any 'knowledge,' 'awareness,' etc of its own state as life, nevermind its state in life. 

Materialistically, there's even less to separate the two.  So, once again, on what grounds is 'complexity' of the object relevant to the moral position of the subject, if moral rights are measured by one's capacity to suffer?  Not to suggest that you're arguing that bacteria somehow deserve moral personhood, but if we allow complexity to be relevant, where do we set the limit?  Ought we all stop swatting mosquitoes?  Are mousetraps genocide machines?

I posit that the appearance of complexity, from a high-level viewpoint, is more important than the actual complexity.  Otherwise, we must all be much more careful not to eat, drink, move, or even exist, without worrying for the countless victims (all, within reasonable limits, pretty much our equals as far as complexity goes) of our mere existence.

So, what's really relevant is: does this lifeform with which I'm interacting seem to share enough, experientially, with me, for me to assume its moral equivalency?  Which is why I question whether to radically rezone a city full of sims much more deeply than I mourn the losses every time I sneeze.

Though I agree, viscerally, with your laudable stance in re: not messin' wit' da kittehz, I find it difficult to explain satisfactorally (to myself at least) what it is that a cat has more of, that a sim doesn't - excepting perhaps my own tactile familiarity shared environmental experience.  Outside, perhaps, of some sort of return to a weak vitalism in our philosophy, I fail to see any difference in kind; simply one of degree.



Quote
Our perspective, intent and actions while playing a game alter how and in what way it can affect us.

By what mechanism?  It seems more likely that our intent and perspective will alter how we affect the game; presuming, of course, that 'intent' has any causal relevance whatsoever in the world (not to sure about that one, tbh).


Quote
I hope uncanny valley does not have an effect here. We probably should not let discomfort affect our moral intuitions/ethical conclusions.

At this time? A goldfish can sense while a sim is closer to a rock moved by a programmed crane (the crane is the game). Whether a goldfish has 'moral personhood' is debatable. It would depend on whether suffering or sentience was the better metric.

In a better world, 'ought' probably equals 'is.'  I get the feeling (no more than a hunch, at this point - it's a long way from any area of expertise I may actually hold!) that such an effect is very much in play.  If it's close enough to be like me, but far enough away to use a slightly different set of resources in my niche, it deserves moral consideration.  If it's close enough to me to use the same resources, but just far enough from me to not be me (or kin), DIE ENEMY, DIE! (cf. every colonial expansion, ever, from the wiping out of the Neaderthals on).  If it uses the same part of our shared niche, but is within the sphere I call 'me' (incl, but not limited to: my family; my house-guest level friends; my cat (but not necessarily that stray that keeps digging up the gddmn garden!!!!); my workmates and close associates (except that doofus 3 cubicles over - him I can do without); etc.  As resources diminish, level I accept as 'close enough to me to be me' changes; you want to live in my country, cool, whatever... in my garage, you'd better be very close to me... in my bedroom....

What are your criteria for describing something as sensate?  A sim reacts to its environment, within external bounds set by forces out of its control (the size of the region, the program that makes up its person), much the same as a goldfish does (the size of the fishtank, the programming that wrote its neural development - organs of sense).

Is it the size of the bounds that matter?  If Sims were actual, 3-dimensional objects in tangible spacetime, would their reactions to external stimuli somehow count more?  Is it their relative complexity?  Well, as covered, they're really about equal from a systems standpoint; I'd like to add that, from an engineering standpoint, complexity is a negative - how is existence in a 3-dimensional meat machine, with a bazillion failure modes, functionally superior, or more moral?

Once again, viscerally, I agree with you.  It's right to question oneself, simply because it's right.  I'm okay with the tautology.  But, when I ask myself why I feel anything approaching moral qualms, when playing a game that I paid to play, that was designed to be played the way I'm playing it - that's where it gets interesting.

Quote from: Dm1321
Speaking just for myself -- a beating heart.

So, where would, say, an automobile engine fit in the hierarchy?  Somewhere between a goldfish and a sim - organic w/pump>machine w/pump>machine w/o pump?  Equal to a golfish?  Meatpump = Gaspump > Nopump?
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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1035962#msg1035962
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2013, 07:16:50 am »
A game is nothing more than quantifiable variables that have a set (although at times, seemingly endless) amount of reactions. Humans can be driven to do anything, given the right circumstances. A sim on the other hand, can not. Places like cleverbot, although fun, is nothing at all. For example type in exactly,

"Hello, Im the doctor" as the first part of a conversation, and it will say "Then why did you overdose" The conversations, seem random at first, but in reality they can be duplicated, at near 100% accuracy. The only reason that is "near 100%" is because the answers do sometimes change based on the responses (if one particular response is given enough times), however this also, can be controlled by looking at what cleverbot does to "learn". Cleverbot really just gives the appearence of a real life instead of actually being a real life.

There is nothing in this world that you can give/say/do/ect to every human that they will give the exact same response.

There are arguments that we are literally nothing more than just code. We are just cause and effect, however, even if our brainwaves were able to be analyzed, it would be impossible to predict the future for that person. I was talking to a friend a long while back that was talking about the smartest person alive (maybe the best chess player alive, I cant remember which, all I know is the story ultimately talked about chess). He was saying that the chess player would know literally every move that I was going to make. I insisted that that wasnt the case. He may know the best move to make, but he will not know which move I personally will make. No amount of statistics will say either.


Humanity/valuable life, in my opinion is best described as free will. Note that a slave, for example, still has free will. A person in a prison cell still has free will. The lack of being able to carry out your will due to being detained does does not equal a  lack of free will anymore than me not being able to fly means that I dont have free will. Having a certain viewpoint taught to you since birth to the point where you are essentially brainwashed, does not mean you dont have free will either. Not acting on your free will is not the same as not having free will.

In a sim literally everything about them is known. Their code can be seen and it can be deciphered.  Humans, unfortunately, whether you want to attribute it to lack of knowledge, or to a "soul" or whatever it is you would like to call it, can not be. Perhaps it can be seen as an argument from ignorance, but I have seen people make extraordinary choices in everyday life that seems to be pointing to the fact that we do indeed have free will. That  is the clear defining factor for me when it comes to something being alive, and therefor, if a moral significance should be attributed to the happenings of that particular thing.

The ability to suffer, should be irrelevant. If I dont feel pain, I do not suffer, but that doesnt mean you should have the right to kill me. That would be akin to saying that painless death is ok. Suffering, although a good indicator, is not an "Always", but a "Sometimes".
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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1035967#msg1035967
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2013, 07:49:35 am »
Our perspective, intent and actions while playing a game alter how and in what way it can affect us.

By what mechanism?  It seems more likely that our intent and perspective will alter how we affect the game; presuming, of course, that 'intent' has any causal relevance whatsoever in the world (not to sure about that one, tbh).
The Ben Franklin effect is one example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Franklin_effect
(Intent is usually part of perspective. It was listed separately so as not to be forgotten)

What are your criteria for describing something as sensate?
You seem to be confused about where the Sims in SimCity end and where the rest of SimCity begins. SimCity might be considered as complex as a bacterium however SimCity does the majority of what you credit the Sims for doing. A single Sim has a list of variables and a list of methods that SimCity calls. Some of those methods call other methods. There even exist methods outside of a single Sim that alter that Sim (unemployment events).

Why am I so focused on the How? Because the How distinguishes the edge of an object and also shows the level of sensation that occurs. A Sim probably does a linear series of operations/method calls with some loops (unlike Civ units). Suffering and Sentience both require a minimum complexity in this sensation system before being possible. Suffering needs to have the existence of pain/pleasure. Stimuli being divided based on positive/negative rather than merely triggering the responses. Sentient requires self awareness via some kind of sensing sensing. Last I knew Sims had not been given either prerequisite. (However last I knew the game called all the methods hence my crane and rock comment.)

Again complexity is a perquisite for the important details, not an important detail in itself. There may eventually be a math theorem more complicated than a cat. However the cat has enough complexity and developed the ability to suffer (unsure about sentience).

To answer a lot of your scattered quesitons:
If the capability to Suffer is a sufficient condition of moral personhood AND if _____ has the capability to suffer then
IIRC mosquitoes do not but I am not sure about mice.

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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1035984#msg1035984
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2013, 11:20:31 am »
I was troping earlier today, and i find something that might be relevant, or at least a good read: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VideoGameCrueltyPotential
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Re: Modern-Day Gamers' Ethics [discussion/brainstorm thread] https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=46263.msg1037458#msg1037458
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2013, 02:01:57 am »
http://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php/topic,29730.msg1024072.html#msg1024072

A game of sims is nowhere near the complexity of a bacterium, or, for that matter, an atom.

At a rough estimate, the time required for Titan, the most powerful computer in the world today at 20,000Tflop/s, to simulate the activity of a single atom throughout one second, with only three spatial dimensions plus the dimension of time, is approximately 10^75 times the current age of the universe.

 

blarg: