Is the Universe Sentient?

[Ozymandias]

For the computer example, is it really conscious or just following rules for example you could make a program that compares a picture to a picture of a toaster and tells you if the pictures look the same, and if it looked at itself, it would be thinking about itself, but i would really not want to call that sentient. even if a computer is doing complex analysis of itself are we really willing to call that the same thing as consciousness? i mean, it might have the same effect, but is the computer actually aware? I mean, from the computers perspective how does it feel, and does it even have a meaningful perspective to think of?

[OldTrees]

For the computer example, is it really conscious or just following rules for example you could make a program that compares a picture to a picture of a toaster and tells you if the pictures look the same, and if it looked at itself, it would be thinking about itself, but i would really not want to call that sentient. even if a computer is doing complex analysis of itself are we really willing to call that the same thing as consciousness? i mean, it might have the same effect, but is the computer actually aware? I mean, from the computers perspective how does it feel, and does it even have a meaningful perspective to think of?

Considering we are merely talking about sentience I see no reason that a category that includes squids would necessarily have a justified intuition for excluding self analyzing computers.

Sapience is not being discussed. Only sentience.

[doublecross]

I didn't think we considered squids to be sentient.

[OldTrees]

I didn't think we considered squids to be sentient.

Check the wiki. You might be surprised at how much you are deviating from the term. Sapience not Sentience is the defining human trait.

[doublecross]

I thought that this was the [extremely oversimplified] breakdown:
consciousness- some form of awareness
sentience- consciousness + sense of self
sapience- sentience + judgement, complex thought, ability to process hypothetical situations, etc.

Most animals meet consciousness, only a few make sentience, and as far as we know, we are alone in sapience.

[OldTrees]

I thought that this was the [extremely oversimplified] breakdown:
consciousness- some form of awareness
sentience- consciousness + sense of self
sapience- sentience + judgement, complex thought, ability to process hypothetical situations, etc.

Most animals meet consciousness, only a few make sentience, and as far as we know, we are alone in sapience.

Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive or be conscious, or to have subjective experiences.

Most animals are sentient. The ability to suffer is a sufficient but not necessary condition of sentience.

[doublecross]

Really? Most animals fail the mirror test. [Placed in front of a mirror and have a dye marking on the forehead. Most animals can't use this to realize they have dye on their forehead]  This is generally used to demonstrate that there is thought, but no real perception of the concept of self.

Last time I checked, that really was the criteria for sentience. However, the linguistic label isn't what is important, but rather the ideas the words are supposed to represent.


I just provided a key for what I am using these words to mean. I invite you to define the terms as you are using them.

[OldTrees]

Since you meant this thread to be talking about sense of self, we should continue discussing that. I was just wishing to highlight the extend of the trait being discussed so Ozymandias could evaluate his intuition.

The criteria for mind I used earlier fits either trait through it fits sense of self better.

[Ozymandias]

well, i meant that maybe a computer could perform self analysis without it feeling anything.

i mean, things could analyze things without feeling anything. 

i mean, consider a circuit, with a switch a battery and a lightbulb.    the light being on results from a property about oneself, namely switch position
however, no one would say that it could 'feel' the difference between on and off, right?
so, add some complexity.
what about something that adds a to the circuit a second lightbulb rigged to a solarpannel. now, it lights up because its switch is connected, but the second light bulb lights up based on simple analysis about if the first one is lit up.  now, unlike the first one, this is clearly a simple form of analysis, introspection even.   However, it seems pretty obvious it still doesn't feel anything. Like, it doesn't have two emotions- power and now power.

and all computers are just combinations of cirucits and stuff.   as you go from one step to another, is there one magical extra wire that makes it wake up and go 'i can suddenly feel things'   i don't think so.

[OldTrees]

well, i meant that maybe a computer could perform self analysis without it feeling anything.

i mean, things could analyze things without feeling anything. 

i mean, consider a circuit, with a switch a battery and a lightbulb.    the light being on results from a property about oneself, namely switch position
however, no one would say that it could 'feel' the difference between on and off, right?
so, add some complexity.
what about something that adds a to the circuit a second lightbulb rigged to a solarpannel. now, it lights up because its switch is connected, but the second light bulb lights up based on simple analysis about if the first one is lit up.  now, unlike the first one, this is clearly a simple form of analysis, introspection even.   However, it seems pretty obvious it still doesn't feel anything. Like, it doesn't have two emotions- power and now power.

and all computers are just combinations of cirucits and stuff.   as you go from one step to another, is there one magical extra wire that makes it wake up and go 'i can suddenly feel things'   i don't think so.

How do you feel things?
For me I have:
A sensory device that detects something (pressure sensor)
A series of neural axons that transmits that signal back to (wires)
A series of neurons that have feedback communication with themselves and the other neurons (data storage)

[doublecross]

I might be wrong, but I don't think he is using feeling and sensing interchangeably.

If I understand correctly, he is using feel to mean aware in the way that "cogito ergo sum" implies awareness.

I know I phrased that terribly, but no better wordings are springing to mind. I hope 1) that I interpreted him correctly, and 2) that my meaning reaches you more or less in tact.

[OldTrees]

This is where I wish a neuroscientist were around.

All I understand is how I sense things and that I can hear my thoughts when my speak center is stimulated.