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Offline doublecrossTopic starter

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Is the Universe Sentient? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32915.msg415887#msg415887
« on: October 26, 2011, 05:05:07 am »
It may strike you as odd that someone who is a devout atheist, and a firm believer in the Sciences, would propose that the Universe as a whole is sentient.

But, bear with me.

If you were to ask someone to define consciousness, they would probably say something more or less equivalent to "Something capable of thinking". Those who would go for more specificity might come up with "Ability to form ideas", or "Awareness of stimuli".
 Dictionary.com defines it as "noun
1.
the state of being conscious; awareness of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.
2.
the thoughts and feelings, collectively, of an individual or of an aggregate of people: the moral consciousness of a nation.
3.
full activity of the mind and senses, as in waking life: to regain consciousness after fainting.
4.
awareness of something for what it is; internal knowledge: consciousness of wrongdoing.
5.
concern, interest, or acute awareness: class consciousness."

The general gist of this is some kind of awareness.

Many would go on to say that in terms of classifying thought, there is a condition that is more difficult to achieve than consciousness, which is sentience.

In addition to being able to think, sentience requires the ability to have a concept of self. 

It is generally agreed than most animals have consciousness, but not sentience.

Only a few animals have been generally agreed by the scientific community to be sentient (by tests such as the mirror test).


A few months ago, my good friend Michael said something to me that elegantly stated something I had mused about for some time.  He said
"I find it quite wonderful that the laws of physics have caused clusters of neurons to think about the laws of physics"


It really seems to me that the Universe meets the criteria for being considered sentient.

As you are reading this post, you undoubtedly have thought about the Universe, and whether or not it is sentient.   Isn't that alone proof that it is? You have personally witnessed proof that a part of the Universe has a concept of the Universe, and has such an acute awareness of self, that this part of the Universe was even thinking about the Sentience of the universe!

As several people have quipped, "If you are wondering if you are Sentient, you are" (or various rephrasings thereof)


Now, I can understand that some of you have rejected this because it just feels wrong. 

It is likely that some of you are thinking something along the lines of, "Yes, well, that is all well and nice, but really that is something within the Universe thinking about the Universe, not the Universe thinking about itself!  That shouldn't count. That's cheating. "

or, to be more concise: Just because something [a clustering of neurons] *in* the universe is thinking about the universe doesn't mean the whole universe is sentient.

To people of that opinion I say this:
If that is your argument, then you should also argue that you are not sentient. A vast majority of you is not directly involved in the thinking process. In fact, the only part of you that is capable of thinking about you is... a clustering of neurons inside you.


However, this wouldn't be a question if I only accepted the possibility of one answer. 

I would love to know what you think, whether you agree, or think that I am a raving lunatic, or something inbetween.










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Offline Bloodshadow

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Re: Is the Universe Sentient? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32915.msg416280#msg416280
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2011, 01:03:45 am »
Yes.
To be or not to be, I can do both at once. Go learn quantum mechanics, n00b.

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Re: Is the Universe Sentient? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32915.msg416284#msg416284
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2011, 01:07:48 am »
If there's a possibility, then it exists.
In other words,
Yes.
It is the greatest mystery of all...
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Re: Is the Universe Sentient? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32915.msg416308#msg416308
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2011, 01:43:20 am »
Look up the fallacy of composition.

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Re: Is the Universe Sentient? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32915.msg416366#msg416366
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2011, 03:40:32 am »
No.

Sentience is a trait of a mind. My arm is not sentient. I, my mind, own and control the arm. I, my mind, think about the earth. That does not make the earth sentient. I, my mind, think about you. That is not why you are sentient. You are sentient because you, your mind, think about you. Your arm is not sentient either. Sentience is a trait that is only applicable to a (singular) mind.
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Re: Is the Universe Sentient? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32915.msg416370#msg416370
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2011, 03:43:20 am »
We don't control the universe, however, so are we not part of the universe? Riddle me this.
Perception is the source of misunderstanding.

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Re: Is the Universe Sentient? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32915.msg416373#msg416373
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2011, 03:52:16 am »
We don't control the universe, however, so are we not part of the universe? Riddle me this.
We are part of the arbitrary category "universe". However the "universe" is not a mind and therefore cannot have a trait that is only applicable to minds.

A dog's mind is sentient.
A cat's mind is sentient.
The collection of a cat and dog is not more sentient than the sum of the sentience stated above. (aka the collection does not have an group mind)

Edit: Grammer fix
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Offline Nepycros

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Re: Is the Universe Sentient? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32915.msg416469#msg416469
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2011, 12:58:35 pm »
We don't control the universe, however, so are we not part of the universe? Riddle me this.
We are part of the arbitrary category "universe". However the "universe" is not a mind and therefore cannot have a trait that is only applicable to minds.

A dog is sentient.
A cat is sentient.
The collection of a cat and dog is not more sentient than the sum of the sentience stated above. (aka the collection does not have an group mind)
A dog's mind is sentient.
A cat's mind is sentient.

Just correcting your grammar based on your earlier points.
Perception is the source of misunderstanding.

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Re: Is the Universe Sentient? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32915.msg416489#msg416489
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2011, 01:48:33 pm »
I find it difficult to believe that something made up of mostly non organic materials to be sentient.
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Re: Is the Universe Sentient? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32915.msg416667#msg416667
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2011, 09:29:48 pm »
I find it difficult to believe that something made up of mostly non organic materials to be sentient.
That's the least you have worry about. But that's not the concern, Doublecross wants to say that because we are in the universe and we are sentient, thereof the universe is sentient as well. But I use OldTrees's analogy if I may
You are paralytic and you can't move with anything except for blinking. My brain is sentient, but my body isn't.
We live on the planet earth, but we don't affect rest of the universe at all. Our brains are sentient, but universe isn't.

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Re: Is the Universe Sentient? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32915.msg418677#msg418677
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2011, 07:53:31 pm »
I see this argument has taken a semantic turn as to whether or not anything that is not directly part of the thinking apparatus is considered to sentient.

However, as with most things, the line drawn only exists until you zoom in on it.

Trying to make a dichotomy where the mind is sentient, but the person as a whole is not leads to several questions such as
1) Is this implying some body/mind dualism, or are we acknowledging that the mind is tethered to [and operates via] a physical component?
2) Assuming we are not treating the mind as existing separate from the physical brain, how do we classify what is actually part of this mechanism? Do we count nerves? Sensory organs? The hormonal systems? What about parts of the brain that are not involved in any form of conscious though, such as those parts that only regulate automatic processes? If part of one's though process is conducted externally (such as writing something down to preform a calculation, or to remember something) is that considered part of the sentient entity?


Regardless of the answer to that earlier mind/body question, there still remain systems smaller than the Universe that imply similar questions.
If a group of 5 people is discussing that group of 5 people, and do so in a way that the group has ideas about the group that no individual would have had independently, then, is the group (or the set of 5 minds in the group) sentient?

Additionally, the line that we draw between constructed computers and so called "organic" minds is rather arbitrary. We have computers that are more complex than the minds of some of the simplest known animals. If those computers were programmed to self-analysis, would you consider that to be sentient?


If one writes a program that could look at source code and, based on some pre-defined algorithms calculate certain metrics about the code, such as if there are possible inputs that would lead to an infinite loop, or if there are any routines that could never possibly be called during normal program operation, and then set that program to analyse its own source code, would you consider that to be a rudimentary form of consciousness?



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Re: Is the Universe Sentient? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32915.msg418822#msg418822
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2011, 12:53:44 am »
I do not know what causes self awareness. However I am calling the portion that is aware of itself the mind. I know enough cell biology to recognize that there exists parts of the body that are sensed but do not sense. Based on this I conclude that the mind is a subset of the body (or a subset of the dualism if reality is a dualism).

I am not a neuroscientist so my knowledge of neurons is limited to cell biology. From my place of insufficient knowledge, I would assume some of the cell signalling pathways are part of the mind but not all. I would further guess that only the parts of the signalling pathways that receive feedback no matter how convoluted are part of the mind. Sapience is a higher criteria than mere Sentience and I would assume only a subset of what I am calling the mind would be involved in Sapience.

The signal delivered through writing a note passes through intermediates that will not receive feedback. These parts are not part of the mind as I conceive of it.

Both of your computer examples seem to me to have at least a portion of the computer being sentient.

My intuitions about the group of 5 humans is that it is 5 minds. However I do not have a good explanation to match that intuition. If it does count as a single mind then it would still only be a subset of the group.
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