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Re: is abortion correct when it saves the mother? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32313.msg422472#msg422472
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2011, 05:07:03 pm »
I don't understand this question. You say that:

Quote
A child is fully sentient during all stages of pregnancy
.. which is false because during those early stages of pregnancy, the fetus is so underdeveloped that it's not something any rational person would call "fully sentient".

This is like a moral question about a real life situation, but with a special rule that you made up. What is the point of even replying to this?
this simplifies things a lot, and we don't need to argue about the "babies are people too" sort of thing. the immortality question is just a hypothetical situation for now, but if our technology develops to the point where humans can become, in essence, immortal, then that question will have worth.
Well, my point is that instead of discussing "which are better: cats or dogs?", we are discussing "which are better: cats or dogs, assuming cats can fly".

You basically took a real life situation, changed the reality a bit, and then ask us to discuss about it. Instead of being an interesting ethical dilemma, this is some kind of weird fantasy dilemma, like talking about "who will win Batman or Superman?". Instead of simplifying things, it just makes the whole thing silly.



P.s. Answers to questions in this post:
1. Dogs
2. Dogs
3. Superman, assuming Batman does not have Cryptonite

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Re: is abortion correct when it saves the mother? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32313.msg422497#msg422497
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2011, 08:29:29 pm »
3. Superman, assuming Batman does not have Cryptonite[/size][/color]
trick question, batman ALWAYS has kryptonite.

anyways, its not actually relevant if the fetus is sentient or not, and in fact assuming it is actually makes the moral decision more interesting.  if a being, sentient or not,  is threatening your life, even unintentionally, you are within your right to defend yourself, even using lethal force.
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Re: is abortion correct when it saves the mother? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32313.msg422548#msg422548
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2011, 09:53:22 pm »
3. Superman, assuming Batman does not have Cryptonite[/size][/color]
trick question, batman ALWAYS has kryptonite.

anyways, its not actually relevant if the fetus is sentient or not, and in fact assuming it is actually makes the moral decision more interesting.  if a being, sentient or not,  is threatening your life, even unintentionally, you are within your right to defend yourself, even using lethal force.
If you truly wish to discuss it under those conditions, you can, but please state which conditions you are discussing under at the beginning of your post to make it less confusing.
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Re: is abortion correct when it saves the mother? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32313.msg438347#msg438347
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2011, 11:09:45 pm »
First here are a few biological understandings that must be understood.

1.)  Their are conditions, diseases, and physical events, that do happen that do mean the baby has 0 chance of survival or might already be dead that can or will be a severe risk to the mother.  The argument that 'how can you possibly know' is B.S. we have developed things like Ultrasound Machines and various genetic testing methods.  Since, the baby is in effect will never been born alive the answer of abortion/dnc is the only ethically correct answer in this case.  We have the ability to save some baby's who in the past would have never made it, why not also exercise the ability to save the mother when we have it.

2.) A baby does not have a wonderful survival rate even after birth, and their are a lot of hormonal based things that go on that greatly effect both parents and the child.  A child not close to it's mother has a significant chance of developing one of many anti-social disorders.  While in utero a mother unknowing may send cells to attack the baby while under mental stress such as Rape or a mental disease.  This is the muddy area.  However, their is an interesting physiological test that I can't remember the name of it, but it's very famous for showing moral absolutism is unethical...  so you can see it's a case by case bases here which once roughly answer divides it between 1.) or upcoming 3.)

3.) A baby is likely healthy but the mother does not want it.  Well, first, there are many other methods of birth control, so it's not really all that common except in cases where teenagers and adults have been prevented information on birth control.  So for those areas, lets continue...  It's already been shown through many socio-economic studies, that it is better at this time for society as a whole for the mother to proceed with an abortion, as it significantly declines crime in general, murders, and a variety other societal problems.  From a pure population versus planet sustainability aspect, it's also been shown that at this time, it's better to have less baby's.  So from a pure societal aspect, go ahead mom.  However, this is also where Religious doctrine and some ethical questions do exist, such is is killing the potential baby a slipper slope.  Just because it's good right now, doesn't mean it's right. 

So let's go view the Religious doctrine aspect.  In the U.S. where this debate is pretty heavy, it's mainly the religious, particularly Catholics and Fundamental Christians.  Well for the Catholics I can't say much, per their doctrine it's the Pope who interprets the scripture and not being the Pope I can't sight them much.  Although for all other Christians out their, the rest of Christianity broke away from the Catholics for a reason, and the big one, is to be able to look at the Bible themselves and not having unknown edicts placed on them from a Pope. 

For non-Catholic Christians:  I site you these:
Exodus 21:22-25:
"When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

"As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.” (Ecclesiastes 11:5)

Although than be fruitful and multiply I have even when going to the old Hebrew and Germanic version can not find a complete verse that support's Anti-abortion.  Perhaps you can give me one.

This leads finally to the slippery slope argument, the question is, is the baby living?  It is in the form of a parasite up until near birth (Yes, by definition parasite), during that last trimester though, their is the ability for the baby to survive, and in fact, the mother if she dies, typically will attempt to birth the child giving to random chance of it's survival.  So, it seems, for the third trimester we have something that could turn into a living thing all by itself, so it appears slippery slope argues, no late term abortions.

But, that's exactly what we have in the U.S. no late term abortions, huh, it's almost as if their is nothing really here to argue about, we already have on the books what is ethically right....  hmmmm....





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Re: is abortion correct when it saves the mother? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32313.msg438388#msg438388
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2011, 11:59:40 pm »
First here are a few biological understandings that must be understood.

1.)  Their are conditions, diseases, and physical events, that do happen that do mean the baby has 0 chance of survival or might already be dead that can or will be a severe risk to the mother.  The argument that 'how can you possibly know' is B.S. we have developed things like Ultrasound Machines and various genetic testing methods.  Since, the baby is in effect will never been born alive the answer of abortion/dnc is the only ethically correct answer in this case.  We have the ability to save some baby's who in the past would have never made it, why not also exercise the ability to save the mother when we have it.

2.) A baby does not have a wonderful survival rate even after birth, and their are a lot of hormonal based things that go on that greatly effect both parents and the child.  A child not close to it's mother has a significant chance of developing one of many anti-social disorders.  While in utero a mother unknowing may send cells to attack the baby while under mental stress such as Rape or a mental disease.  This is the muddy area.  However, their is an interesting physiological test that I can't remember the name of it, but it's very famous for showing moral absolutism is unethical...  so you can see it's a case by case bases here which once roughly answer divides it between 1.) or upcoming 3.)

3.) A baby is likely healthy but the mother does not want it.  Well, first, there are many other methods of birth control, so it's not really all that common except in cases where teenagers and adults have been prevented information on birth control.  So for those areas, lets continue...  It's already been shown through many socio-economic studies, that it is better at this time for society as a whole for the mother to proceed with an abortion, as it significantly declines crime in general, murders, and a variety other societal problems.  From a pure population versus planet sustainability aspect, it's also been shown that at this time, it's better to have less baby's.  So from a pure societal aspect, go ahead mom.  However, this is also where Religious doctrine and some ethical questions do exist, such is is killing the potential baby a slipper slope.  Just because it's good right now, doesn't mean it's right. 

So let's go view the Religious doctrine aspect.  In the U.S. where this debate is pretty heavy, it's mainly the religious, particularly Catholics and Fundamental Christians.  Well for the Catholics I can't say much, per their doctrine it's the Pope who interprets the scripture and not being the Pope I can't sight them much.  Although for all other Christians out their, the rest of Christianity broke away from the Catholics for a reason, and the big one, is to be able to look at the Bible themselves and not having unknown edicts placed on them from a Pope. 

For non-Catholic Christians:  I site you these:
Exodus 21:22-25:
"When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

"As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.” (Ecclesiastes 11:5)

Although than be fruitful and multiply I have even when going to the old Hebrew and Germanic version can not find a complete verse that support's Anti-abortion.  Perhaps you can give me one.

This leads finally to the slippery slope argument, the question is, is the baby living?  It is in the form of a parasite up until near birth (Yes, by definition parasite), during that last trimester though, their is the ability for the baby to survive, and in fact, the mother if she dies, typically will attempt to birth the child giving to random chance of it's survival.  So, it seems, for the third trimester we have something that could turn into a living thing all by itself, so it appears slippery slope argues, no late term abortions.

But, that's exactly what we have in the U.S. no late term abortions, huh, it's almost as if their is nothing really here to argue about, we already have on the books what is ethically right....  hmmmm....
banning late term abortions isnt ethically right.
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Re: is abortion correct when it saves the mother? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32313.msg438555#msg438555
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2011, 06:35:07 am »
A flaw of this topic in general is stating that circumstance defines the morality or "correctness" of something, when in reality it has no impact on it. All circumstance does is appeal to emotion, and has no actual impact when it comes to morality. It may be more acceptable, but not more correct. Thats just a semantics issue though.


Meanwhile though, im going to make a small attempt at turnign this back on track since whether you believe abortion is correct or not is irrelevant. The topics whole conversation lies in the assumption that it isnt. If you disagree with that, its fine, but this isnt the place to state that.
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Re: is abortion correct when it saves the mother? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32313.msg438559#msg438559
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2011, 07:18:57 am »
A flaw of this topic in general is stating that circumstance defines the morality or "correctness" of something, when in reality it has no impact on it. All circumstance does is appeal to emotion, and has no actual impact when it comes to morality. It may be more acceptable, but not more correct. Thats just a semantics issue though.


Meanwhile though, im going to make a small attempt at turnign this back on track since whether you believe abortion is correct or not is irrelevant. The topics whole conversation lies in the assumption that it isnt. If you disagree with that, its fine, but this isnt the place to state that.
Circumstance does play a role in morality. To use a blunt example. What you are holding is a morally relevant detail of the circumstance when determining whether it is morally permissible to let go. Whether the held object is a deadman switch or a piece of dirt can alter whether letting go is morally permissible. However not all details of the circumstance are relevant. The color of your hair does not alter whether letting go of an object is morally permissible. In conclusion, morally relevant details can exist in the circumstance but not all details are morally relevant.
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Re: is abortion correct when it saves the mother? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32313.msg438575#msg438575
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2011, 08:27:05 am »
If something is immoral, it is immoral regardless of the circumstances. Now immoral/=wrong because morality is not a weighted decision. What is right and wrong is. Let me use this example.

Killing is immoral. If someone broke into my house, and was going to kill me and my wife, and I killed them, then that would be immoral. Killing is immoral. However, it would still be the right thing to do, even if it is immoral. I determine it is right by weighing out the good and the bad. The morality stays the same regardless of the situation. How right or wrong it is, doesnt.

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1.)  Their are conditions, diseases, and physical events, that do happen that do mean the baby has 0 chance of survival or might already be dead that can or will be a severe risk to the mother
Although not quite first hand experience, my sisters friend was told she had a 0% chance of survival. She went on with the pregnancy anyways. She survived it. Medicine is an art more than a science at times. There are too many different factors for everything to be known.  (for the record, I do agree that in this type of situation, abortion would be what should be done, however, Im just playing devils advocate)
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Re: is abortion correct when it saves the mother? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32313.msg438578#msg438578
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2011, 08:44:56 am »
If something is immoral, it is immoral regardless of the circumstances. Now immoral/=wrong because morality is not a weighted decision. What is right and wrong is. Let me use this example.

Killing is immoral. If someone broke into my house, and was going to kill me and my wife, and I killed them, then that would be immoral. Killing is immoral. However, it would still be the right thing to do, even if it is immoral. I determine it is right by weighing out the good and the bad. The morality stays the same regardless of the situation. How right or wrong it is, doesnt.
Now, the word immoral in my experience refers to something that it would be 'wrong' to do. Ethics and Morality are a guideline for what should and should not be done, whatever those ethics are. So if that isn't how you define morality, could you give a clear definition of what you do say it is?

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Re: is abortion correct when it saves the mother? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32313.msg438579#msg438579
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2011, 09:03:45 am »
If something is immoral, it is immoral regardless of the circumstances. Now immoral/=wrong because morality is not a weighted decision. What is right and wrong is. Let me use this example.

Killing is immoral. If someone broke into my house, and was going to kill me and my wife, and I killed them, then that would be immoral. Killing is immoral. However, it would still be the right thing to do, even if it is immoral. I determine it is right by weighing out the good and the bad. The morality stays the same regardless of the situation. How right or wrong it is, doesnt.
I am unfamiliar with your usage of immoral. Specifically I am unfamiliar with using immoral to represent a potentially morally permissible choice. I am more familiar with the usage related to the concept "Ought implies can". If a moral option necessarily exists for all choices, then immoral options are never the right thing to do.

In your murderer example I see one of a few possible interpretations:
1) Killing the murderer was the right thing to do. Killing is not immoral. Something besides causing death is the reason murder is immoral.
2) Killing is immoral. Killing the murderer was not the right thing to do. The morally permissible option would be dying.
3) Killing is not immoral. Something besides causing death is the reason murder is immoral. Killing the murderer was not the right thing to do. The morally relevant detail that makes murder immoral (ending sentience perhaps) was present in your killing the murderer.

P1: A dog unintentionally killing a microbe is not committing an immoral act.
P2: A human intentionally killing an innocent human out of malicious intent is committing an immoral act.
1+2: There is a morally relevant detail that makes killing morally permissible in the first circumstance but immoral in the second circumstance.
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Re: is abortion correct when it saves the mother? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32313.msg438651#msg438651
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2011, 05:47:14 pm »
Quote
Although not quite first hand experience, my sisters friend was told she had a 0% chance of survival. She went on with the pregnancy anyways. She survived it. Medicine is an art more than a science at times. There are too many different factors for everything to be known.  (for the record, I do agree that in this type of situation, abortion would be what should be done, however, Im just playing devils advocate)
Sadly, there is a political set of terminology that is used that is never restated in stories like this.  Their is 0% of survival and near 0% chance of survival.  0% of survival, the heartbeat stopped, severe ectopic pregnancy, certain genetic diseases.  In these cases a doctor not looking to get sued will say, I'm sorry to inform you....  these are your options, (DNC only or a choice of DNC and natural miscarriage depending on what is going on). 

Now there are other near 0% chance of survival, such as if the cysts on the ovaries don't stop growing and they are are filling rapidly.  In this case, the mother most likely will die from internal bleeding if the cysts are compound cysts and rupture poorly, or the womb will be turn or ripped, etc,  If the pregnancy get's even near the third trimester, the baby if still alive if not crushed to death or cut off from oxygen, will likely be severely deformed and brought into the world to live a miserable life of pain and suffering.  So a doctor not looking to get sued will say, you have a choice to keep going with this pregnancy, it's very very risky and either you and/or the baby have a next to nothing chance of survival; however, it is still possible and so you have a choice here. 

It's likely a case like this where their was a severe risk that is a personal choice to make, she chose to go forward, in your story we have no idea the state of the child, lets hope healthy and well, we have no current knowledge of the status of the mother, lets hope healthy and well, and so a choice was made, and in the statistic risk side, she defied the odds.  It's that, that falls in my number 2.) catagory.  It's the grey area, which when one thinks, educates, and makes the best decision, results in catagory 1.) or catagory 3.),  She found this fall into category 3.) and then said do I want to keep it, absolutely, and proceeded.

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Re: is abortion correct when it saves the mother? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=32313.msg438658#msg438658
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2011, 06:18:56 pm »
If something is immoral, it is immoral regardless of the circumstances. Now immoral/=wrong because morality is not a weighted decision. What is right and wrong is. Let me use this example.

Killing is immoral. If someone broke into my house, and was going to kill me and my wife, and I killed them, then that would be immoral. Killing is immoral. However, it would still be the right thing to do, even if it is immoral. I determine it is right by weighing out the good and the bad. The morality stays the same regardless of the situation. How right or wrong it is, doesnt.
Specifically I am unfamiliar with using immoral to represent a potentially morally permissible choice.
I think this is where we are getting lost.
Morals are, at least in my view, absolute. There is no compromising with morality. If something is immoral in circumstance A, it is immoral in circumstance B. There is no "permissible morality" . That phrase, at its essence is "permissible immorality" You are taking an immoral act, and saying it is ok to do in this situation.

If you had to do an immoral act to stop an immoral act, then your act was still immoral. Although the legal system in the US is definitely messed up, I recall a story where someone jaywalked because he saw someone about to be hit by a car and he saved the guys life. Then a police officer nailed him for jaywalking.

snip
I think i accidentally misrepresented the circumstance. The baby was going to be ok regardless. However, the mother was told she had a 0% (not near 0% chance, an actual 0% chance) of surviving the pregnancy. She was told that if she went through with it, then she would die. She is in good health to this day, just for the record. Meanwhile, your statement is more an appeal to ignorance than anything. All the information anyone but the doctor had, said that there was a 0% chance of survival. I do agree that the doctor could have been lieing, however, we have no choice but to say that he wasnt.

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