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Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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How important are extremes? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27833.msg354789#msg354789
« on: June 22, 2011, 02:03:32 am »
If you talk about abortion, someone will bring up rape.
If you talk about murder, someone will bring up wars.
If you talk about lies, someone will bring up lieing to protect

The question. How important are extremes? Should the 1% dictate the remaining 99% or should the 99% be considered first and foremost, while leaving an exception for that 1%?
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: How important are extremes? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27833.msg354790#msg354790
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2011, 02:08:09 am »
No model that is mistaken anywhere (extremes, normal or anywhere in between) is accurate. Sometimes this is due to insufficient detail. In Ethics unjustified exceptions are mistakes in the model. Justified exceptions are part of the model.

In other words: The validity of a model is tested 100 times in each of 100 1%s.
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Offline Nepycros

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Re: How important are extremes? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27833.msg354792#msg354792
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2011, 02:13:28 am »
The most we can do is break it up into smaller classes, and determine the validity of applying certain countermeasures to 'crimes' based on the assumption of circumstance.
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Offline Rutarete

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Re: How important are extremes? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27833.msg354794#msg354794
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2011, 02:16:04 am »
I don't think they're that important, because, when you (well, I) think about it, is what others bring up really an extremity? Or is it the other way 'round?
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Re: How important are extremes? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27833.msg354815#msg354815
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2011, 03:15:42 am »
EXTREMELY IMPORTANT

NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL

Offline Essence

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Re: How important are extremes? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27833.msg355444#msg355444
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2011, 05:31:57 pm »
If you talk about abortion, someone will bring up rape.
If you talk about murder, someone will bring up wars.
If you talk about lies, someone will bring up lieing to protect

The question. How important are extremes? Should the 1% dictate the remaining 99% or should the 99% be considered first and foremost, while leaving an exception for that 1%?

Argument from the extreme is a rhetorical fallacy.  End of dicussion.


Well, not quite -- you do need to make sure that extremes really are extremes before you call someone on that fallacy.  War, for example, accounts for a hell of a lot more than 1% of the murders that occur on Earth.  Rape and lying to protect probably actually are arguments from the extreme, however.
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Offline The_Mormegil

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Re: How important are extremes? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27833.msg355471#msg355471
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2011, 05:58:38 pm »
Argument from the extreme is a rhetorical fallacy.  End of dicussion.
No model that is mistaken anywhere (extremes, normal or anywhere in between) is accurate.
These are the two main ideas on the topic, really. By my point of view, the following is the background for such statements. Correct me if I'm mistaken anywhere, as it is very much likely due to me not knowing very much about you and possibly to misinterpretations. :)

The first statement bases on the principle that reality in itself is too complex to be thoroughly described by models of any kind and shape. If it was possible to describe it in such a way, bringing a counter argument, be it extreme or common, would prove a logical fallacy in the model, thus invalidating it. By assuming that reality cannot be completely described, you are accepting to work with what is most suitable in the case, which is of course the majority of cases, excluding exceptions. This is acceptable, as you're going to miss a few cases with whatever model you are to use, so citing these cases won't prove any point.

The second statement, on the other hand, comes from the opposite principle: that is, reality can be described by models, which must be researched as thoroughly and tested as extensively as possible. Whether a final and conclusive model can be actually reached or not is another subject and doesn't matter here: both a Popperian search of impossible truth or a positivistic definitive approach have the search for a model in common. By accepting this search, you are accepting extreme cases as points to be subject to the model you're proposing, and therefore as possible arguments in the discussion.
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Offline Neopergoss

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Re: How important are extremes? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27833.msg355480#msg355480
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 06:09:13 pm »
Extremes, even if they are rare, are important and must be taken into consideration. You might think twice about eating tomatoes if you found out that there was a large e-coli epidemic and it might kill you.

Offline Essence

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Re: How important are extremes? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27833.msg355484#msg355484
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2011, 06:17:20 pm »
Yes, but that's because humans are irrationally loss-adverse, not because the extreme is actually important. ;)
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Re: How important are extremes? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27833.msg355486#msg355486
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2011, 06:20:32 pm »
If you talk about abortion, someone will bring up rape.
If you talk about murder, someone will bring up wars.
If you talk about lies, someone will bring up lieing to protect

The question. How important are extremes? Should the 1% dictate the remaining 99% or should the 99% be considered first and foremost, while leaving an exception for that 1%?

Argument from the extreme is a rhetorical fallacy.  End of dicussion.


Well, not quite -- you do need to make sure that extremes really are extremes before you call someone on that fallacy.  War, for example, accounts for a hell of a lot more than 1% of the murders that occur on Earth.  Rape and lying to protect probably actually are arguments from the extreme, however.
Well, in a debate (by that a mean a debating competition with a judge and all that jazz), extremes are a valid refutation. Arguing against the unlikeliness of extremes isn't gonna win you very many points. This means that extremes are valid points, and even though they don't matter much in real life, they play an important role in dictating policy.

Offline Essence

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Re: How important are extremes? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27833.msg355491#msg355491
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2011, 06:24:34 pm »
Yes, but that's because humans are irrationally loss-adverse, not because the extreme is actually important. ;)
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Offline Rutarete

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Re: How important are extremes? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=27833.msg355497#msg355497
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2011, 06:36:03 pm »
Extremes, even if they are rare, are important and must be taken into consideration. You might think twice about eating tomatoes if you found out that there was a large e-coli epidemic and it might kill you.
But that's where another variable comes in: Opinion.
Ex. "You should think twice about eating those tomatoes; there's an ecoli epidemic going around:

a) "I don't care."

or

b) "Ok, I'll leave them alone."

My point is that extremes have varying aspects. So is it the variables or the extreme itself that makes extremes important or not?
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