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Offline LaxadarapTopic starter

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Happiness + Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48958.msg1066184#msg1066184
« on: May 03, 2013, 09:27:38 pm »
Not sure whether this should go in religion or philosophy, but I think this is the better place.

Does having a religion, in general, make somebody happier? 

Pro-religion:
Gives a purpose in life.
Gives an end goal.
Can answer many dilemmas.
Sense of belonging


Con-Religion
Religion is restraining.
Often causes guilt
Have to commit (be it going to church, taking responsibilities...)
Sometimes transfers hatred of other religions (but does hatred make the hater feel unhappy?)

These are just a couple points I thought of for each, let me know what you guys think. 
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Re: Happiness + Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48958.msg1066185#msg1066185
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2013, 09:39:24 pm »
Happier, at least if you truly believe in it. Simple and false 'solutions' and explanations for a complex reality make life easy, which is one of the main reasons religions haven't ceased to exist yet.

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Re: Happiness + Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48958.msg1066203#msg1066203
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2013, 10:46:18 pm »
I am pro-religion and find myself happy. That being said, I am not one of those bigots who despise other religions or atheist/agnostics. Going to my church in particular is fun, I choice I personally made based on churches of the same faith in the area. Guilt is something that is necessary anyhow in my opinion, because it serves as a gut-check. If you don't feel guilty no matter what you do, how can you know if you have done something wrong?

It is quite awesome believing that in the end, you will go to Heaven, or whatever else you believe in. Praying does bring a lot of comfort and being in church brings a great feeling of belonging. Also, the classic "What would Jesus do?" really does answer many dilemmas.

Obviously I am biased, but this is how I feel about it.
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Re: Happiness + Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48958.msg1066214#msg1066214
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2013, 11:30:45 pm »
Not sure whether this should go in religion or philosophy, but I think this is the better place.

Does having a religion, in general, make somebody happier? 

Pro-religion:
Gives a purpose in life.
Gives an end goal.
Can answer many dilemmas.
Sense of belonging


Con-Religion
Religion is restraining.
Often causes guilt
Have to commit (be it going to church, taking responsibilities...)
Sometimes transfers hatred of other religions (but does hatred make the hater feel unhappy?)

These are just a couple points I thought of for each, let me know what you guys think. 


I disagree with the bolded strongly and don't agree nor disagree with the rest.

For starters, if you're going into religion to pursue happiness, the chances are you won't be happy doing it.

If you believe in what you are doing but not doing it for the happiness (As in, you just believe in the religion you're currently in, but out of choice and not of a wish to be happy), chances are you may (or may not) be happy. Of course, there are too many variables in question for us to just define the generality of being happy just because of something so simple as religion (Your whole life would have to come into effect), but as long as you are comfortable with what you are doing, chances are you will be happy (As holds true to just about anything.)

Just don't forget that the "Purpose in life" can also be achieved by someone who has no religion. Your "Solution to many dilemmas" are not really solutions. And the whole act of going to the church and having a religion is a whole different thing. There are those that follow X religion to the very core, and there are those that simply follow it by stating they follow it - they pray ever so often, but don't visit the church or any of that. In fact, there are those that just say they are from X religion but barely do anything that could link them to X religion. But then that raises the question of "Would there be a difference between the happiness of the strict follower to the one that only claims to be?".

TL;DR : No.

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Re: Happiness + Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48958.msg1066218#msg1066218
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2013, 11:39:31 pm »
I've found that most of the ostensible benefits to religion can be done just as well with atheism. Let's take a few here (thanks for providing this list, Lax.)

Gives a purpose in life.
Honestly, I would argue that religion devalues our life. Most religions believe in an eternal life after the life on earth, which would mean our life on earth is insignificant in the grand scope of existence. Compared to an infinite life, the life on earth is insignificant. How can anything matter when its importance, compared to the importance of the rest of your presumed life, is infinitesimal?

I may seem callous, but it was even worse when I was religious. Why should it matter if someone suffers if they are going to be eternally happy after they die? Why do I care about someone's misfortune when they get to be happy forever once they're dead? Hell, why should I even care if they're dead? It just means they're in heaven.

I think I'm a lot more caring as an atheist, with regard to both my own life and the lives of others. Given that life is finite, everything that happens has significance because our life on earth is the only form of existence we have and ever will have. Death gives an added pressure to make the most out of life and improve the quality of life for others, because they might not ever get that chance themselves.

Gives an end goal.
When I was still religious, the idea of afterlife was frightening. I was stressed to do everything perfectly in order to assure myself that I don't end up in hell, and the stress was unbearable because I couldn't ever be perfect. I suppose people get around this by convincing themselves that they're undoubtedly going to heaven, but then that just gives them an overly inflated ego, and that doesn't help anyone. If someone is convinced that they'll go to heaven (and others won't), then they inevitably feel a superiority they don't deserve. It's really scary when someone thinks that they have the support of a divine being; it means they think whatever ideals they have are absolutely correct.

Can answer many dilemmas.
I would look into the ethical theory of Utilitarianism. It's a moral code, you could say, that yields MUCH more beneficial results than following religious morality. Utilitarianism is fairly simple: maximize the happiness of society and minimize suffering. Following utilitarianism is much better for answering ethical dilemmas.

Sense of belonging
Well, the idea that one's existence is a perfect divine decision, as opposed to the product of chance, is certainly alluring. But I feel like it gives people too much of a sense of entitlement. It's the idea that someone's life is something they deserve, something that absolutely must exist. I feel like this instigates a sense that people can do whatever they want because God gave them their life, as opposed to being a cog in the workings of the universe that needs to do its job properly.

Nevertheless, there are benefits to religion. I just feel like they are severely outweighed by the downsides of religion.

Besides the problems I mentioned above, religion inhibits morality. It skews the idea of what is right and wrong, what is beneficial or harmful to society. Religion has caused excessive hate over the years, targeting pretty much every minority at some point, often very violently. Even today, many people still despise gays and atheists in the name of religion. Plus, religion is the primary reason people want to deny women the right to have an abortion. But I think the worst part is that religion has convinced people that everything that happens should happen. It creates the idea that whatever tragedies happen on earth are actually in our best interest because they are condoned, or even created by a perfect God. Religion has actually caused people to become callous to the sufferings of victims of crime and poverty. No, we shouldn't let that rape victim get an abortion. If God didn't want her to have a child, he would have prevented her rape. We don't have to help the destitute, dying from malaria and AIDS; if they should be saved, God will do so himself. No, there is no need to educate the poor, God clearly does not want them to be informed.

But atheism leads to a different attitude. Only when we accept that the world is not perfect do we have motivation to improve it. Only when we accept that we do not have perfect knowledge about the universe do we have motivation to learn. Atheism isn't absolutely required to improve the world and discover more about it, but it certainly helps. It would explain why atheists are significantly more likely to be scientists and less likely to go to prison.



TL;DR: Atheism causes people to care more about life because we don't have an eternal life after it. Furthermore, atheism causes people to care more about the lives of themselves and others because there is no God who has created a world where everything is perfect.
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Offline LaxadarapTopic starter

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Re: Happiness + Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48958.msg1066240#msg1066240
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2013, 01:01:13 am »
Spoiler for Response to Dm:
Spoiler for Original Post:
Not sure whether this should go in religion or philosophy, but I think this is the better place.

Does having a religion, in general, make somebody happier? 

Pro-religion:
Gives a purpose in life.
Gives an end goal.
Can answer many dilemmas.
Sense of belonging


Con-Religion
Religion is restraining.
Often causes guilt
Have to commit (be it going to church, taking responsibilities...)
Sometimes transfers hatred of other religions (but does hatred make the hater feel unhappy?)

These are just a couple points I thought of for each, let me know what you guys think. 

I disagree with the bolded strongly and don't agree nor disagree with the rest.

For starters, if you're going into religion to pursue happiness, the chances are you won't be happy doing it.  That is not implied in the question, I was just asking if somebody who is religious is happier, you go into it for whatever reasons you choose.  However, you atone for this below.

If you believe in what you are doing but not doing it for the happiness (As in, you just believe in the religion you're currently in, but out of choice and not of a wish to be happy), chances are you may (or may not) be happy. Of course, there are too many variables in question for us to just define the generality of being happy just because of something so simple as religion (Your whole life would have to come into effect), but as long as you are comfortable with what you are doing, chances are you will be happy (As holds true to just about anything.) Ok, then let us assume that all other things are equal.  Same job, same size family, so on.  Or at least as close as they can be (lifestyle may be a bit different).

Just don't forget that the "Purpose in life" can also be achieved by someone who has no religion. True, but I was implying (and I may not have made it clear) that religion offers a structure to life, there is a set goal to strive for, not one that you have to come up with by yourself (and I believe that people generally like structure).
Your "Solution to many dilemmas" are not really solutions. It is a tool that you (as a believer) can use to make a decision, and justify your actions.  You just have an extra something to weigh this in to, possibly of stronger weight than anything else.
And the whole act of going to the church and having a religion is a whole different thing. There are those that follow X religion to the very core, and there are those that simply follow it by stating they follow it - they pray ever so often, but don't visit the church or any of that. In fact, there are those that just say they are from X religion but barely do anything that could link them to X religion. But then that raises the question of "Would there be a difference between the happiness of the strict follower to the one that only claims to be?".This is very true, but I am implying that you are "devout" and go to church every weekend, doing all of the duties required (Jewish person only eating Kosher (although, this is more of a restriction than a commitment)).

TL;DR : No.

Spoiler for response to Root:
I've found that most of the ostensible benefits to religion can be done just as well with atheism. Let's take a few here (thanks for providing this list, Lax.)

Gives a purpose in life.
Honestly, I would argue that religion devalues our life. Most religions believe in an eternal life after the life on earth, which would mean our life on earth is insignificant in the grand scope of existence. Compared to an infinite life, the life on earth is insignificant. How can anything matter when its importance, compared to the importance of the rest of your presumed life, is infinitesimal?

I may seem callous, but it was even worse when I was religious. Why should it matter if someone suffers if they are going to be eternally happy after they die? Why do I care about someone's misfortune when they get to be happy forever once they're dead? Hell, why should I even care if they're dead? It just means they're in heaven.

I think I'm a lot more caring as an atheist, with regard to both my own life and the lives of others. Given that life is finite, everything that happens has significance because our life on earth is the only form of existence we have and ever will have. Death gives an added pressure to make the most out of life and improve the quality of life for others, because they might not ever get that chance themselves.
Quite a good point, which I did not even think about, glad to have the perspective.  What about living a bad life, so you don't end up in "heaven"?  You mention this below though.

Gives an end goal.
When I was still religious, the idea of afterlife was frightening. I was stressed to do everything perfectly in order to assure myself that I don't end up in hell, and the stress was unbearable because I couldn't ever be perfect. I suppose people get around this by convincing themselves that they're undoubtedly going to heaven, but then that just gives them an overly inflated ego, and that doesn't help anyone. If someone is convinced that they'll go to heaven (and others won't), then they inevitably feel a superiority they don't deserve. It's really scary when someone thinks that they have the support of a divine being; it means they think whatever ideals they have are absolutely correct.
Mental insecurity can definitely be a point against religion, I also did not think of this argument.

Can answer many dilemmas.
I would look into the ethical theory of Utilitarianism. It's a moral code, you could say, that yields MUCH more beneficial results than following religious morality. Utilitarianism is fairly simple: maximize the happiness of society and minimize suffering. Following utilitarianism is much better for answering ethical dilemmas.
Very true, but there are also multiple moral codes.  Religion is just one of them (even if not necessarily designed to be a moral code, it is one).  And just because something is better for society does not mean it is better for the single person.  For this I am assuming we are talking about an individual (whether he/she be happier being religious or not).  You could argue that the world would then suck and the religious person would be unhappy, but I feel that is a bit of a slippery slope (I am not trying to universalize this, just in a single case of one person).

Sense of belonging
Well, the idea that one's existence is a perfect divine decision, as opposed to the product of chance, is certainly alluring. But I feel like it gives people too much of a sense of entitlement. It's the idea that someone's life is something they deserve, something that absolutely must exist. I feel like this instigates a sense that people can do whatever they want because God gave them their life, as opposed to being a cog in the workings of the universe that needs to do its job properly.
Again, if we think about a singular person, does a sense of entitlement and superiority make somebody happier?

Nevertheless, there are benefits to religion. I just feel like they are severely outweighed by the downsides of religion.

Besides the problems I mentioned above, religion inhibits morality. It skews the idea of what is right and wrong, what is beneficial or harmful to society. Religion has caused excessive hate over the years, targeting pretty much every minority at some point, often very violently. Even today, many people still despise gays and atheists in the name of religion. Plus, religion is the primary reason people want to deny women the right to have an abortion. But I think the worst part is that religion has convinced people that everything that happens should happen. It creates the idea that whatever tragedies happen on earth are actually in our best interest because they are condoned, or even created by a perfect God. Religion has actually caused people to become callous to the sufferings of victims of crime and poverty. No, we shouldn't let that rape victim get an abortion. If God didn't want her to have a child, he would have prevented her rape. We don't have to help the destitute, dying from malaria and AIDS; if they should be saved, God will do so himself. No, there is no need to educate the poor, God clearly does not want them to be informed.
Then why did missionaries exist? (not saying they were holy or perfect, but there was an idea behind it).  Also, this is again discussing the religious aspect on the world as a whole, not individually.

But atheism leads to a different attitude. Only when we accept that the world is not perfect do we have motivation to improve it. Only when we accept that we do not have perfect knowledge about the universe do we have motivation to learn. Atheism isn't absolutely required to improve the world and discover more about it, but it certainly helps. It would explain why atheists are significantly more likely to be scientists and less likely to go to prison.
So if motivation leads to happiness (which I feel it does), then in this aspect at least, an atheist would be happier than a religious man.


TL;DR: Atheism causes people to care more about life because we don't have an eternal life after it.
But does that necessarily make a happier life?
Furthermore, atheism causes people to care more about the lives of themselves and others because there is no God who has created a world where everything is perfect.
Better for the world, but what about the happiness of the singular person.

Another way to think about this is if there is a man living a life.  If he suddenly adopted a religion, would he be happier than if he had not?  I would like to try and generalize this as much as possible (so the man's social standing, job, lifestyle don't matter).
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Re: Happiness + Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48958.msg1066596#msg1066596
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2013, 12:16:36 am »
Delusional people tend to be pretty happy, while people actively trying to solve the many problems of life are a bit more distressed and pessimistic.

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Re: Happiness + Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48958.msg1069032#msg1069032
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2013, 12:06:36 am »
Religion can make you more happy. Most people now a days treat religion as a side thing than super involved so you have something to lean on if that makes any sense.

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Re: Happiness + Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48958.msg1069517#msg1069517
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 10:28:47 am »
Without defining 'happiness,' this is a very tricky minefield of a question.  Here goes:

Yes, religion will make you happier.  So will shooting heroin.  So will heeding the voices in your head that tell you to go and kill.  These points assume that 'happiness' is a strictly personal experience, completely divorced from society, consequences, and reasoning - the visceral as opposed to the cerebral, if you will.

If, however, we add concepts such as 'satisfaction,' 'positive change to one's environment,' 'self-reflection/understanding,' or other related ideas to our use of 'happiness,' then religion's impact is neutral; or, more accurately, tangential to the roots of the happiness itself - religion may or may not be the filter through which one defines one's world, with little to no effect on happiness.

Adding 'just,' 'wise,' 'moral,' 'social,' or other such [other]-related concepts to 'happiness' certainly seems to put religion in the negative - as RR pointed out.

So, to answer: yes, doesn't matter, and no.  All at once.
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Re: Happiness + Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48958.msg1137143#msg1137143
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2014, 07:42:57 pm »
Religion has always been a mean of conserving social order. Godly laws or religious imperatives were used to compromise people as God was the only unquestinable authority in peoples mind, since the scientific outburst which has shaken the core of every religion (the existance of some kind of supreme being).

Now to move to the actual answer, I believe that religion can indeed make someone happier wether it is something real or not. If religion (any religion) is the real thing then believing is something good and wanted. If it isn't, then again it can offer happiness the way an innocent lie can make someone feel better. Just think of a mother who has just lost her child and let's say it was her fault. That woman must be in such a painful situation where religion can actualy help her accept or even overcome the shock, making her believe that her child is not dead but his soul continuous to exist and giving her the chance of meeting him again some day. However I thing that investing your happiness in something more stable and less ambiguous is better. What I mean is that faith is something very strong but less strong that fact. If the mother ever comes to reconsider her faith in religion then everything she had invested her happiness upon will be lost, so will her happiness while focusing her feelings on something livable let's say her other child then she will have secured her happiness from doupt. So making someone happier through religion encloses the risk of destroying her world made of glass with one blow.

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Re: Happiness + Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48958.msg1137216#msg1137216
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2014, 02:59:48 pm »
I was a pro-religion, until I'm finally able to view things more objectively.
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Re: Happiness + Religion https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48958.msg1137218#msg1137218
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2014, 03:58:24 pm »
I was a pro-religion, until I'm finally able to view things more objectively.
Warning: Such a statement is also said by a large number of young adults that just changed from Theists to Atheists. The group I am referencing (http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism as an example) tends to be more objective EXCEPT with regards to judging Theism.

Only you(and people that know you personally) would know if this warning is relevant to you or not.
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