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Offline Savage

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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg1070694#msg1070694
« Reply #120 on: May 16, 2013, 04:33:20 am »
I understand this thread is asking if everyone sees the world the same way in terms of morals which not everyone does. My argument was simply people know deep down that their are absolutes, but that is extremely difficult to prove.

So for now, I will contend with not everyone does.

Trees: I liked the discussion of going over if something is okay or not (bob's examples). Would you want to continue that in another thread?

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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg1070703#msg1070703
« Reply #121 on: May 16, 2013, 05:12:33 am »
Trees: I liked the discussion of going over if something is okay or not (bob's examples). Would you want to continue that in another thread?
What about it did you wish continued and how would you wish it continued?

You might have noticed I was more descriptive than judging in that section.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 05:16:38 am by OldTrees »
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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg1070714#msg1070714
« Reply #122 on: May 16, 2013, 06:05:50 am »
Going over complex situations over if something is morally good or bad given knowledge, circumstances, etc. Up to you if you want to continue.

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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg1070839#msg1070839
« Reply #123 on: May 16, 2013, 07:31:30 pm »
You are asking me to judge situations. I can describe situations or tell you how someone else would judge them but I cannot judge situations.
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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg1074721#msg1074721
« Reply #124 on: May 26, 2013, 10:30:10 pm »
We are all good just as much as evil.  We all have the choice to be who we want to be and act the way we want to.
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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg1074945#msg1074945
« Reply #125 on: May 27, 2013, 09:45:58 pm »
I know some people base their actions more on the opinions of others in many instances, but I pull my decisions from myself.

For instance, the morality of taking a life. I don't see it as a morale question, but an opinion of what that means. I value my own life and wish to continue living and being as happy as possible. I try to imagine most people share that opinion, so I view it as a "how would I feel about it from their perspective" thing. That conflicts with the idea that people have imposed morality from their culture. I didn't consult what others thought about it, but rather how I felt about. While I'd like to finish my argument there, I realize that not everybody has the same luxury.

In cultures that have heavy authoritarian aspects, "morality" has stronger cultural influences. It's a touchy subject, but my comparative example will be extremist Islamic groups. They've been told that their god rewards them for taking the life's of those they deem opposed to them. So when one walks into a public place with a bomb strapped to his chest, he doesn't consult his feelings about what taking a life means, but what his religion tells him it means.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 09:47:43 pm by Jyiber »
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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg1079029#msg1079029
« Reply #126 on: June 10, 2013, 10:12:08 am »
Tossing my hat in the ring, here:

There seems to be a categorical error going on - we're not distinguishing between 'morality' and 'ethics.'

Please, correct me if I err, here, but I'll try to describe the difference as simply as I can.  Basically, 'morals' are proscriptive ('Thou shalt not, Thou shalt, end of story), whereas ethics are prescriptive (concerned with the methodology as opposed to results).

Take the 'Bob' example, above.  A moral stance is one of 'Bob is/is not responsible, due to the act of disarming/not disarming the bomb's inherent moral value - 'Thou shalt/shalt not disarm the bomb.'  And ethical stance is one of 'Bob's aims are 'X' (the saving/allowing to die of the victims) - what is the best way to go about serving those ends?

The difference may be subtle; however, it seems to me to be the crux of the debate.  To generalize - (IMO) morals are about whether a [result] is, a priori, 'good' or 'evil,' 'right' or 'wrong.'  Ethics are concerned with the means of achieving [result], regardless of the value placed thereon. 

So, with this distinction in mind, I would say that no, morality is not the same for everyone.  However, the ethos in play may be (as shown by the discussion of societal norms) similar. 

The big moral question is 'do the ends justify the means?'  The big ethical question is 'do the means serve the ends?'

As a real-life example, let's go back to the front-line soldier.  A moral stance such as 'killing of another human is wrong' allows for no justifications such as self-/societal preservation - killing of another human is wrong, by fiat.  An ethical stance of 'one desires to protect one's family/tribe/nation' allows for whatever means best serve the ends. 

One may hold simultaneous and opposing views on the morals and ethics of a situation - Killing is wrong, but courageously facing one's opponent on the battlefield, regardless of outcome, may be ethical.

I fear I may have muddied the waters, some.  Soz.
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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg1079265#msg1079265
« Reply #127 on: June 11, 2013, 06:47:15 am »
There seems to be a categorical error going on - we're not distinguishing between 'morality' and 'ethics.'

Please, correct me if I err, here, but I'll try to describe the difference as simply as I can.  Basically, 'morals' are proscriptive ('Thou shalt not, Thou shalt, end of story), whereas ethics are prescriptive (concerned with the methodology as opposed to results).
Those words have so many different definitions that it is both difficult to fail at giving a valid definition and impossible not to miss a valid definition.
However the difference you are describing is one that is worth talking about and using the words morals and ethics in that manner will suffice for that end.



@memimemi
I agree with your statement that people's views on morals vary. (This is called Cultural relativism and has been scientifically documented.)
This is of course because most views on morals are opinions, invalid and or nonsense. Views on morals are derived not from morals but from views on morals. As such they are as varied as perspectives (everyone should have at least 3).

I also agree with your statement that people's ethics tend to agree when the share the same end. Ethics are the result of logic and information about a situation being applied the the situation. Access to information can vary but logic is rather constant.
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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg1079593#msg1079593
« Reply #128 on: June 12, 2013, 02:29:43 pm »
Quote from: OldTrees
@memimemi
I agree with your statement that people's views on morals vary. (This is called Cultural relativism and has been scientifically documented.)
This is of course because most views on morals are opinions, invalid and or nonsense. Views on morals are derived not from morals but from views on morals. As such they are as varied as perspectives (everyone should have at least 3).

I also agree with your statement that people's ethics tend to agree when the share the same end. Ethics are the result of logic and information about a situation being applied the the situation. Access to information can vary but logic is rather constant.

Though I agree with everything you've said here, it's not the point at which I was aiming.

I don't see the difference between peoples' views on morality, and morality itself.  On the surface, there seems to be a divide - but does it hold under scrutiny?  Whether one ascribes to a moral standard/law due to one's culture or due to the nature of the moral law itself makes no difference - unless we postulate the supernatural as the highest authority (as many do, but that's a different debate), both the culture and the moralist(s) within it are mistaking a value judgement for a [super]natural law.

And that's where the distinction between morals and ethics becomes especially useful - both are imposed value systems, but the targeted values are different in kind.  The moral value judgement relates to 'how ought all people, whether 'all' is defined as 'my people' or 'all humans,' act or not act; the ethical is concerned with 'how ought I act?'  Morality is, by nature, paradoxical: it demands personal responsibility for the views and values of the society one finds oneself in, as an accident of birth.  Ethical action is concerned with personal responsibility, regardless of the normative powers of society.

A prime cultural example of the difference would be the contrast of the Abrahamic traditions (the hundreds of commandments throughout Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Exodus, for example) and the Dharmic traditions of Buddhism (the Eightfold path).

To question morality is to question the society which imposes it; to question an ethos is to question the reasoning of the single human who ascribes to it.  The former is inherently political; the latter allows but does not require any interaction with the rest of society.

Cultural Relativism is not only a salient point, when discussing morality; it is, I argue, the salient point.  When dealing with ethics, it may or may not be, depending on the justification used for a particular ethical standpoint.

Views on morals *are* morals - our value judgements on morality are the defining characteristic of morality qua morality.  This is why, in a moralistic society, it is not a valid argument to say 'but I don't agree that (x) is [right/wrong].'  If a society holds the culturally relativistic view that, say, having a pet dragon is immoral, one's reasons for keeping a dragon chained in the backyard are irrelevant to the [good/evil/right/wrong] value 'thou shalt not keep dragons.'

My bias, I'm sure, is showing, but I contend that absolute morality ((x) is inherently [good/evil]) is chimera: were there such a thing, how would any particular society or person be able to demonstrate it, without another being able to contend the exact opposite?  (cf. the entire history of humanity's adventures into absolutist religiosity)

I agree with the thrust of Nietzsche's arguments - ALL morals, by nature, are reflections of the values humans impose on the world - and in the imposition of value, opinion is functionally the equivalent of fact.  What matters is the power attributed to those values, whether by a society upon another, a subset of a society upon another, or even a long-dead society upon everyone.

Another way of exploring the difference is to note that morality requires an entity to be in a powerful enough position to punish, censure, or otherwise enforce it; ethics require one to do so to oneself.  If there were such a thing as a self-evident, absolute morality, one would expect a different consequence: morality would be self-enforcing (such as in the Hindi conception of Karma).  One who failed to follow a self-evident, absolute morality, would be a non-existent entity - there could be no such thing as cultural relativism, just as there are no examples of humans living without a liver (or a machine that functions the same way).

In my (conditional) analysis, morality is ethical thinking taken too far - an overdose by society on a personalized medication, if you will.

Thoughts/contentions/refutations?
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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg1079636#msg1079636
« Reply #129 on: June 12, 2013, 05:43:59 pm »
While we observe the same situation, our conclusions differ strangely.

Moral claims/morals/views of morality are Statements [Sentences that have a True/False/Nonsense value] about morality [The correct answer to moral questions].

When we examine how these statements are generated by cultures or individuals we can see that they are not being derived from the truth but rather are being derived from moral intuitions [prior moral claims].

From here you seem to have thrown out the term morality [The correct answer to moral questions] and replaced it with morality [Views of morality]. I think this move loses crucial metaethical information about the nature of these moral claims.

From there our disagreement increases. You take your criticism of self-evident absolute morality and use it as evidence to exclude the possibility of a non-self-evident absolute morality.

So while I cannot agree that morality is ethical thinking taken to far, I can agree that it tends to be ethical thinking taken too far.
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Offline memimemi

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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg1079682#msg1079682
« Reply #130 on: June 12, 2013, 07:45:43 pm »
While we observe the same situation, our conclusions differ strangely.

Moral claims/morals/views of morality are Statements [Sentences that have a True/False/Nonsense value] about morality [The correct answer to moral questions].

When we examine how these statements are generated by cultures or individuals we can see that they are not being derived from the truth but rather are being derived from moral intuitions [prior moral claims].

From here you seem to have thrown out the term morality [The correct answer to moral questions] and replaced it with morality [Views of morality]. I think this move loses crucial metaethical information about the nature of these moral claims.

Where we differ, OT, is in the assumption that there is such a thing as an unconditional 'truth;' you seem to be saying the mistakes we make in re: morality are based on our misapprehension of this existant truth.  What I'm saying is that there is no evidence to support the existance of this 'truth' in the first place: we only experience the statements as generated by cultures or individuals; we do NOT experience a Truth, seperate from our own biases,assumptions, and social goals.

Morality is, following Nietzsche, Sartre, and Wittgenstein, purely a construct based on the presumption that our valuation of an ethical goal is its own Truth.

If I'm misconstruing, please do correct me.  If not, I pose you this series of related questions: based on a universal morality, is it moral for the tiger to kill a man?  Is it moral for an electron to not present itself in a single time and place?  Is it moral for gravity to exert a pull corresponding to the inverse square law?

If there is a universal morality, outside of human valuation and construction, then these ought to be answerable questions.  If not, as I contend, these questions are meaningless and trivial.

I won't ask you the impossible - to give a strict definition of what such a universal morality is.  Instead, and more pertinent, is the question of whether such an entity is a universal force (akin to a physical law), an innate (instinctual, if you will) force in humans (or other great apes, or other social mammals, or what have you), or something else altogether.

I still see no reason to abandon the core hypothesis that leads me to reject 'morality' in place of 'ethics' (as we've agreed to define them): morals require an outside enforcer - ostensibly human, unless we're moving this discussion to the Religion or Science boards - for anyone to apprehend them.

For the record, I reject Platonic Idealism on much the same grounds.

The main reason I exclude the possibility of a non-self-evident absolute morality is that there is nothing in the natural world which is non-self-evident, when the term is used in this manner.  Difficult, yes, often due to the troubles in observing events that are orders of magnitude outside of our normal scales of time and space (QCD, Hubble Expansion, etc) - but self-evident, inasmuch as we need no outside evidence beyond direct observation to offer existential proof of such entities.

If you're using a slightly looser formulation of 'self-evident,' then I ask: by what metric can we measure Morality, without the interference of human valuation and preconceived notions of what we ought to look for?  What experimental methodology (possible or not, doesn't matter) would you suggest as a reliable way to test our apprehension of Moral Law, and our diversion therefrom on the human scale?
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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg1079742#msg1079742
« Reply #131 on: June 12, 2013, 10:58:44 pm »
Where we differ, OT, is in the assumption that there is such a thing as an unconditional 'truth;' you seem to be saying the mistakes we make in re: morality are based on our misapprehension of this existant truth.  What I'm saying is that there is no evidence to support the existance of this 'truth' in the first place: we only experience the statements as generated by cultures or individuals; we do NOT experience a Truth, seperate from our own biases,assumptions, and social goals.

Morality is, following Nietzsche, Sartre, and Wittgenstein, purely a construct based on the presumption that our valuation of an ethical goal is its own Truth.
This shows my 2 issues.
1) You claim a universal morality does not exist because there is no evidence for a self-evident universal morality. I cannot take that intuitive leap for it is invalid. (Maybe true or false)
If the existence of something creates evidence then lack of evidence is evidence of lack. (Cultural relativism is evidence for a lack of a self-evident* universal morality)
However if the existence of something does not create evidence then the lack of evidence is not an evidence of lack. (Do a truth table of existence and existence of evidence to confirm.)
*self-evident used here as self-evident to at least the majority of humans. Self-evident universal moralities can exist that are not self-evident to a majority of humans. (perhaps the connections or logic is too difficult) This should fix my misscommunication about "non-self-evident"

2) Once you dismiss the possibility of a universal morality, you redefined the word. Morality is useful as a symbol for the concept of a universal morality even if a universal morality does not exist. An example of its use is in the critique of morals. (Since moral intuitions are not connected to a universal morality)



A universal morality would be a series of statements. Statements need to have a truth value (True/False/Nonsense) but do not require there to exist a human able to answer them. (I will let you continue to view moral questions as meaningless and trivial since I do not have evidence for or against that)

As for the rest of your questions:
I am not trying to convince you a universal morality exists. I don't have a bias towards believing it exists or does not exist.

As such I neither have a moral theory nor a conscious replacement for morality(see, another instance the term is useful and should not be redefined away)

What I am trying to convince you of is that the term morality should not be redefined merely to make it identical to the term morals.
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anything
blarg: