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Offline mega pliniTopic starter

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good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg439752#msg439752
« on: December 17, 2011, 08:32:28 pm »
 Good or evil? Who decides Which is what? Do you?

These opposits have a different meaning in other cultures. But still, there are similarities that are universial. (killing someone is not done)
why is this the same for every culture (i'm not counting the crackheads)? Is it imprinted in our genes? are we being moniterd by some greater force?
value's like this are forged by society, but still some of them are similar with other societies, Why is that?

ps: Is this the right board to post this tread?
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg439764#msg439764
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2011, 08:43:19 pm »
Yes, this is the right board.

My take on Moral Truth:
Moral and Immoral are not decided. They are inherent characteristics of options in choices. These characteristics are not subjective.

It is moral to choose the option that is not objectively worse than any other existing option.

My take on Moral Judgements:
Our moral judgement are rooted in our sentiments and motives. Most moral judgement can be boiled down to approval/disapproval of actions. This would account for the similarities and differences in the moral judgement of people from different cultures. I personally find sentiments to be a fallacious starting point and thus my take on Moral Truth is limited in scope.
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Offline mega pliniTopic starter

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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg439775#msg439775
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2011, 08:56:56 pm »
then I have a question for you: Which one is "better", to make decision in favor of youself or in favor of the group (group being defined as anyone but you)?


If youre talking about objectivety, you should be able to define it. How is it defined?
Defining this objectivety is a sign of arogance, i'dd say.
(want to excuse myself for my bad english, i'm not a native speaker)
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg439784#msg439784
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2011, 09:06:07 pm »
then I have a question for you: Which one is "better", to make decision in favor of youself or in favor of the group (group being defined as anyone but you)?


If youre talking about objectivety, you should be able to define it. How is it defined?
Defining this objectivety is a sign of arogance, i'dd say.
(want to excuse myself for my bad english, i'm not a native speaker)
2 Answers to the first question:
Moral Truth: IDK
Moral Judgements: Depends on the ratio and if there are any morally impermissible actions involved. If any part of an option is immoral then the whole option is immoral.

2 Answers to the second question:
1) There is wisdom in noticing when one does not know. I would rather humbly note my ignorance than make a fallacious claim about moral truth.
2) The objective moral standard is not defined it is discovered. I have not discovered it yet.
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Offline darkrobe

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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg439828#msg439828
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2011, 10:01:37 pm »
watching.

Offline darkrobe

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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg439832#msg439832
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2011, 10:06:50 pm »
on the "if a part of some action is immoral then the whole action is immoral."

killing is considered evil, Saving someone from death is often considered good.

If you kill one person to save the life of someone else. Is that action good or evil?


Offline OldTrees

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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg439839#msg439839
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2011, 10:14:31 pm »
on the "if a part of some action is immoral then the whole action is immoral."

killing is considered evil, Saving someone from death is often considered good.

If you kill one person to save the life of someone else. Is that action good or evil?
I do not believe killing is inherently immoral. (See vegetarian diet)
I do not believe killing animals is inherently immoral. (Some people cannot survive on the vegetarian diet)
I do not believe killing people is inherently immoral. (See assisted suicide)

I define the word Murder to mean immoral killing to differentiate between permissible and impermissible killing.
Murder to prevent murder is still impermissible.
Killing that is not murder to prevent murder might be permissible.
Killing that is not murder to prevent killing that is not murder might be permissible.
Murder to prevent killing that is not murder is still impermissible.
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Offline darkrobe

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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg439841#msg439841
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2011, 10:16:17 pm »
what defines immoral killing then? intent? method?

If that action of killing is not immoral or evil, then what makes it so?

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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg439949#msg439949
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2011, 04:41:21 am »
what defines immoral killing then? intent? method?
If that action of killing is not immoral or evil, then what makes it so?
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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg439959#msg439959
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2011, 05:59:26 am »
what defines immoral killing then? intent? method?

If that action of killing is not immoral or evil, then what makes it so?
IDK. However I do have beliefs on the topic.

I find intent including predicted consequences and perceived actions to be morally relevant.

Why?
I reject Moral Luck. Moral Luck is the concept that one can be worthy of moral blame due to elements outside of ones control.
Take 2 drunk reckless drivers. They take the same route and both momentarily turn their head as they run a red light. Driver 1 was lucky. Driver 2 hit a pedestrian. If Driver 2 is guilty of a more immoral deed then that additional blame results from the presence or absence of the pedestrian. Something that neither driver had any control over.
My intuition sets both drivers guilty of equal blame for their choice. Thus rejecting moral luck. Thus I only find the factors within the agents control to be morally relevant. So consequences and action are out but predicted consequences and perceived action remain morally relevant.

If that action of killing is not immoral or evil, then what makes it so?
A necessary condition would be the killer intended to kill a person* they perceived was unwilling to die. Nonlethal self-defense that happened to be lethal would not be immoral killing. Though it may or may not have been immoral use of force.
*Person defined as a being that deserves moral consideration.
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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg440030#msg440030
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2011, 02:35:25 pm »
The first question to be answered is, "What is a good society?" At a minimum, a good society is one that avoids its own destruction. I can think of at least three ways that a society can be destroyed: internal conflict, external conflict, and environmental threats. A good society is one that keeps internal conflict and external conflict at low levels and adjusts its practices to fit its environment.

Every society has rules, formal and informal. Rules appear to be the way that societies maintain themselves. Two questions arise. First, what should the rules be? Leaders, intellectuals, and activist citizens typically formulate the rules. Second, should I as an individual obey the rules? In part, that depends on how satisfactory the rules are in moving toward a good society (i.e., one that can be sustained in the face of the threats I mentioned). Another possibility for good-faith breaking of a rule is when following the rule produces an outcome that is sufficiently more negative than breaking it. Such exceptions should be rare, or else the whole system of rules is undermined. Then there are those who simply won't or can't follow the rules, without any good-faith critique. Those who won't (in bad faith) follow the rules are immoral. Those who can't follow the rules are not moral agents.

Getting back to the question of "What is a good society?" I would also say that a good society enables or leaves room for its citizens to fulfill their potential as human beings. Survival is good, but to be fully human is also to discover and exercise one's talents and abilities, to pursue goals, to understand and address personal flaws and weaknesses, to connect with others. The survival of society comes first, but once that is more or less secure, the humanist maxim of fulfilling one's potential comes into play.

Why do there appear to be some universal moral rules across societies? In part, it's because we have the same biology. But just as importantly, some practices are obviously detrimental to a society's survival or stifle human striving to fulfill potential. So why are there differences across societies? Because feedback for what works and what doesn't work is imperfect and difficult to interpret. Also, in some cases, more than one way of doing things may work, at least in the short run.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: good or evil: the same for everyone? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=34890.msg440036#msg440036
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2011, 03:12:34 pm »
The first question to be answered is, "What is a good society?"
Why society? Why assume society is an inherent good? Why not answer whether one ought to create/join/participate in a society prior to answering what makes a society good? Perhaps societies are morally neutral but the actions of the members are morally relevant for other reasons.

The the very minimum we should justify the claim that longer lived societies are prima facie better.
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