God/Evolution: so what?

[northcity4]

During my courses in philosophy I ran into a very interesting question regarding the evolution argument in which they basically say who cares? Who cares if God created or Evolution created, they claim it's easier to tell people evolution made things cause that is what we are familiar with.

My question here: IF we said heaven or any other form of after life did not exist, why bother debate if evolution made the earth or if God did? Would it matter? In the end your both going to die.

Other thoughts: Why live for the Judeo-Christian god? In the end I am going to die just like the evolutionist (remember we are saying there is no heaven).

I can learn to do 'godly' things without being  believer too. Doesn't take a bible to show me murder is wrong or loving other people is a gal in life as we grow up.


Again my question is: My question here: IF we said heaven or any other form of after life did not exist, why bother debate if evolution made the earth or if God did? Would it matter? Why or why not? Your thoughts?

(This material in the course still makes me ponder)

[Cheesy111]

Why debate whether water is made from two hydrogens and an oxygen rather than two nitrogens and an oxygen? 

[OldTrees]

Note: Remember, Evolution is the theory of how life changes. It is not the theory of the origin of life nor the theory of the origin of the universe.

Humans have the ability to be the source of subjective value. (Ex: Pasta is valuable in part because I want it.) One of the many things people have decided will be valuable is truth.

One of the discoveries was falsification. The trait a theory may have such that if it were false then evidence that it is false must be possible. In this manner constant testing will allow the discarding of false theories and accumulate evidence that the non discarded theories are true.

Why bother to debate if evolution made the earth? No reason because evolution does not claim to have made the origin of life much less the earth.
Why bother to debate if evolution made the biodiversity of the earth or if a God pretending to be evolution did? No reason both act the same with the same random mutations and natural selection. Both can use evolution as the predictive model.
Why bother to debate if evolution made the biodiversity of the earth or if a God not pretending to be evolution did? Because the theory of evolution has evidence, is predictive and can be used to benefit society (cure genetic disease).

If heaven does not exist, and the Judeo-Christian god does, why live the way he commands? Because in the universe where the Judeo-Christian god exists it is both the source of moral definition and the omniscient omnibenevolent observer of that definition. However you are not obeying his commands so much as using his knowledge to obey the moral definition. However your belief in the Judeo-Christian god's existence would be (from your point of view) equally unsupported as all your other moral premises.

[northcity4]

Note: Remember, Evolution is the theory of how life changes. It is not the theory of the origin of life nor the theory of the origin of the universe.

Humans have the ability to be the source of subjective value. (Ex: Pasta is valuable in part because I want it.) One of the many things people have decided will be valuable is truth.

One of the discoveries was falsification. The trait a theory may have such that if it were false then evidence that it is false must be possible. In this manner constant testing will allow the discarding of false theories and accumulate evidence that the non discarded theories are true.

Why bother to debate if evolution made the earth? No reason because evolution does not claim to have made the origin of life much less the earth.
Why bother to debate if evolution made the biodiversity of the earth or if a God pretending to be evolution did? No reason both act the same with the same random mutations and natural selection. Both can use evolution as the predictive model.
Why bother to debate if evolution made the biodiversity of the earth or if a God not pretending to be evolution did? Because the theory of evolution has evidence, is predictive and can be used to benefit society (cure genetic disease).

If heaven does not exist, and the Judeo-Christian god does, why live the way he commands? Because in the universe where the Judeo-Christian god exists it is both the source of moral definition and the omniscient omnibenevolent observer of that definition. However you are not obeying his commands so much as using his knowledge to obey the moral definition. However your belief in the Judeo-Christian god's existence would be (from your point of view) equally unsupported as all your other moral premises.

Why debate whether water is made from two hydrogens and an oxygen rather than two nitrogens and an oxygen?

Cheesy, that is important if one day we needed to make water in order to survive. Plus, I don't see how that relates the question I asked, are you agreeing it does not matter?

Old trees...I am in agreement with everything...except that last paragraph confuses me? Can you simplify it?

I agree, we can use science to determine a lot of things. One of my favorites is exactly what you stated: curing genetic diseases. But lets say God started the world/universe created all species and types of living things, and let science run from there? AGAIN DOES THIS MATTER?

I am having trouble understanding if you are saying it does or does not. In your post you kept asking why debate? Are you saying all this debate is pointless? Should we stop trying to 'convert' or argue our belief/evidence and let people do as they please (believe what they want) and just find out what happens after we die?

Richard Dawkins said the same thing: if he died and found out it was God who created, he said he would ask why be so silent/invisible to everyone? The devils advocate claims the same thing: either God is stupid or just plain cruel because so many are going to Hell God and it's all your fault.

[OldTrees]

If heaven does not exist, and the Judeo-Christian god does, why live the way he commands? Because in the universe where the Judeo-Christian god exists it is both the source of moral definition and the omniscient omnibenevolent observer of that definition. However you are not obeying his commands so much as using his knowledge to obey the moral definition. However your belief in the Judeo-Christian god's existence would be (from your point of view) equally unsupported as all your other moral premises.

Old trees...I am in agreement with everything...except that last paragraph confuses me? Can you simplify it?

Part 1:
The Euthyphro dilemma teaches us that for God's commands to be good in any useful sense of the term they must be good for some reason other than because God said so. The best defense of Divine Command Theory I found was that God is both the source of what makes good things good and an observer of what makes good things good. The observer then informs us of the truth through commands. Therefore God is acting as a messenger rather than a commander.
Part 2:
I cannot prove murder is wrong without using an unproven assumption as a premise. If the unproven assumption happens to be true then my conclusion is true. If the unproven assumption happens to be false (which is unfortunately possible) then my conclusion may or may not be true. This is a trait of all moral theory including those from Religions.

I agree, we can use science to determine a lot of things. One of my favorites is exactly what you stated: curing genetic diseases. But lets say God started the world/universe created all species and types of living things, and let science run from there? AGAIN DOES THIS MATTER?

To the curious it would matter but to the majority it would not matter. Science would be the relevant model for how the world will continue to work. (Speciation and all)

I repeated the questions I was answering before I answered them.

[northcity4]

So let me ask this: God created: why be moral? I am going to die anyways. Why live for him instead of doing what I want to do? Again, there is no heaven so I am going to die and be buried and that's it. Is there any reason a christian should do as God wants if there is no heaven? Is there really any sincere way to love God because if you have Heaven, your whole mindset changes.

Let's assume for a moment God really did love me as much as the bible says, why follow him still? I am just curious if there is an actual valid reason.

Also, in reality there is a ton of debate over creation of the universe: Why? What are there reasons for such? Why is it so important for each side to prove the other wrong?

Let's say the evolutionists won...ok great, now what?

[OldTrees]

So let me ask this: God created: why be moral? I am going to die anyways. Why live for him instead of doing what I want to do? Again, there is no heaven so I am going to die and be buried and that's it. Is there any reason a christian should do as God wants if there is no heaven? Is there really any sincere way to love God because if you have Heaven, your whole mindset changes.

Let's assume for a moment God really did love me as much as the bible says, why follow him still? I am just curious if there is an actual valid reason.

Also, in reality there is a ton of debate over creation of the universe: Why? What are there reasons for such? Why is it so important for each side to prove the other wrong?

Let's say the evolutionists won...ok great, now what?

Why be moral? Being moral is doing what one ought to do and not doing what one ought not to do. This definition is why atheists strive to be moral. As long as morality is meaningful then it is a goal in itself.

Most of the debate is because of side issues. Christians try to convert others in order to save them. Militant Atheists try to convert theists in order to free them from superstitious reasoning.
I personally see a self consistent position for either belief and believe that salvation is a non factor in how one should live their life. (No comment on which belief I hold or if there is an afterlife)

Let's say the evolutionists won. Now what? Scientists return to their research assured that they have one less topic to waste time in courts about.

[northcity4]

So, just to be clear before we 'close' this thread, you are saying it's useless for both sides to debate with heaven not being a factor? I am just looking for a yes or no.

[OldTrees]

So, just to be clear before we 'close' this thread, you are saying it's useless for both sides to debate with heaven not being a factor? I am just looking for a yes or no.

Yes.