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Offline vrt

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1067189#msg1067189
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2013, 09:09:12 am »
You second post in this thread asserts that a prayer to God is a functional method of changing someone else's behavior. Let's not kid ourselves here.
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Offline Savage

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1069786#msg1069786
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2013, 03:44:21 am »
Um...ok...I guess I will get us back on topic.

One interesting point I have wondered about: if we made machines that people would describe as sentient, then could machines really have free will or complete free will figuring you can compute them as you please?

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1069844#msg1069844
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2013, 08:50:44 am »
Um...ok...I guess I will get us back on topic.

One interesting point I have wondered about: if we made machines that people would describe as sentient, then could machines really have free will or complete free will figuring you can compute them as you please?
IF we are material, IF we have free will and IF we can make a computer replicate the material cause of free will THEN yes.
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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1069934#msg1069934
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2013, 04:19:26 pm »
Let me ask this...and let's assume Christianity for a moment:

Would you agree then we are to God (God created us) the same way machines are to us (we create machines)? Another way to perceive this is are we the same 'material' as machines and are we really hardwired is there something else going on?

If we are wired like a program, then I disagree we have free will.

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1069973#msg1069973
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2013, 07:15:23 pm »
Let me ask this...and let's assume Christianity for a moment:

Would you agree then we are to God (God created us) the same way machines are to us (we create machines)? Another way to perceive this is are we the same 'material' as machines and are we really hardwired is there something else going on?

If we are wired like a program, then I disagree we have free will.
Christianity assumes we are material machines with an ethereal component. (So not the same as computers.)

I did not say if we are wired like a program. I said IF we have free will and IF a program can be wired like us.
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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1069981#msg1069981
« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2013, 07:41:46 pm »
I think I am confused...let me kind of switch to this example to explain myself: IF we could create a human (I am not saying to bore one, but literally make one alive like Frankenstein-pieced together) and IF that human could think for it self and IF it could replicate the material cause...does it still have free will?

It should...but what if we gave it the mind of some dead human: the question is: did that person come back to life in another form now (free will then) or is this a brand new person who is confined to the thought thinking of the dead person (not free will imo), but may have different characterstics?

Other point to consider: is the brain the source of our free will what evidences are against that?

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1069988#msg1069988
« Reply #54 on: May 13, 2013, 08:00:13 pm »
I think I am confused...let me kind of switch to this example to explain myself: IF we could create a human (I am not saying to bore one, but literally make one alive like Frankenstein-pieced together) and IF that human could think for it self and IF it could replicate the material cause...does it still have free will?

It should...but what if we gave it the mind of some dead human: the question is: did that person come back to life in another form now (free will then) or is this a brand new person who is confined to the thought thinking of the dead person (not free will imo), but may have different characterstics?

Other point to consider: is the brain the source of our free will what evidences are against that?
IF free will has a material cause* THEN a purely material being could have free will.

No we could not raise the dead. If we could create a mind for a human body then we could create 2 minds for 2 human bodies. Since we would be able to create initially identical humans that then start to deviate, it is the same question as if we cloned someone. Cloning does not raise the dead.

*Science continues to eliminate possible material causes for free will as it also continues to discover free will is less and less likely to be true.
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Offline Zso_Zso

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1069998#msg1069998
« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2013, 08:30:35 pm »
No we could not raise the dead. If we could create a mind for a human body then we could create 2 minds for 2 human bodies. Since we would be able to create initially identical humans that then start to deviate, it is the same question as if we cloned someone. Cloning does not raise the dead.

*Science continues to eliminate possible material causes for free will as it also continues to discover free will is less and less likely to be true.

I know I'm going off on an off-topic tangent here, so I apologize for that....
Raising the dead -- is an interesting point. You say, we can't but within certain limits we can. It is common in medical practice to bring back people who die in an accident or during surgery. I believe the time limit is roughly 30 minutes after the heart stops for this to be possible -- the sooner the better of course. The limit is mostly due to brain cells dying due to lack of oxygen. There have been experiments on dogs in the Soviet Union in the 1940s, where they have been able to bring back dead dogs after much longer periods of death if they kept the brain supplied with oxygen via a mechanical instrument. They even got severed heads of dogs re-animated without the body of the dog.

Coming back to the question of free will in machines: some "futurists" (e.g. Ray Kurzweil) predict that within a few decades we will be able to reach the level of hardware performance to emulate the full functionality of a human brain in a computer. He proposes, that we will be able to "upload" our brain: http://www.kurzweilai.net/live-forever-uploading-the-human-braincloser-than-you-think

IF his predictions are correct (of course its a rather important if), that will certainly have some strong impact on many philosophical questions including the question of free will -- would such a computer "inherit" the free will of the person uploaded ?
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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1070006#msg1070006
« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2013, 08:37:49 pm »
@Zso_Zso
Thank you for pointing out that the medical definition of death is different than the normal definition of death as a result of the difficultly to technically define death. Aka doctors consider a body dead long before the normal definition would agree (given modern medical advances).

IF we have free will and IF our free will is purely material and IF we can upload our brain into computers THEN computers can have free will.
Science is increasing support for the third IF while decreasing support for the first and second IFs.
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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1070122#msg1070122
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2013, 03:22:59 am »
Well, I don't agree there. If material is the cause of free will, then those who are cloned or get uploaded are bound to think as such and can only think within the limits of the original person.

This is different than if we clone in terms of DNA since DNA does not determine the mindset/thinking of the subject (they cloned a lamb back in 2003 I believe as evidence for this).


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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1070135#msg1070135
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2013, 03:56:27 am »
Well, I don't agree there. If material is the cause of free will, then those who are cloned or get uploaded are bound to think as such and can only think within the limits of the original person.
Until they are forced to differentiate (exposed to different stimuli). Once they differentiate then it will be plain as day that they are different individuals.
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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1070352#msg1070352
« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2013, 12:09:14 am »
Cloning will let you be different since it is only a DNA thing (has been proven). Do we have actual transplants of brain swaps? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_transplant.

If this is possible and If the new body retains the brain of the person from whom it came, then we have proved that your own uniqueness/thought process is strictly to the brain.

Agree/disagree?

 

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