Free will?

[vrt]

Everything you do is a result of electrochemical reactions in your brain responding to input from sensory organs. However, the amount of data, the complexity of the reactions and the insane amount of possible combinations makes it unlikely that anyone will ever be able to predetermine it.

It's pretty freely worded after Hawking, but hey.

That is what some people argue and it is possible, but like Trees said, not yet proven...but hey, maybe your right, maybe we will never know since the reactions will always stop us from ever proving it.

Err, what? How is that not proven? We've fully mapped brain activity patterns. Just because we can't effectively predict action (as the theorem predicts), doesn't mean it's unpredictable.

[Furby]

Please explain mapping out brain activity patterns.

[OldTrees]

Everything you do is a result of electrochemical reactions in your brain responding to input from sensory organs. However, the amount of data, the complexity of the reactions and the insane amount of possible combinations makes it unlikely that anyone will ever be able to predetermine it.

It's pretty freely worded after Hawking, but hey.

That is what some people argue and it is possible, but like Trees said, not yet proven...but hey, maybe your right, maybe we will never know since the reactions will always stop us from ever proving it.

Err, what? How is that not proven? We've fully mapped brain activity patterns. Just because we can't effectively predict action (as the theorem predicts), doesn't mean it's unpredictable.

Because it is science and it does not prove. A staggering amount of support for determinism has been gathered and support continues to grow. That is why, outside of ethics, I use the determinism model.

[Furby]

Determinism is usually more focused on the influence of free will than the actual manipulation of free will is it not?

[OldTrees]

Determinism is usually more focused on the influence of free will than the actual manipulation of free will is it not?

Determinism is the theory that Free Will does not exist. The Future is predetermined by the Present which is predetermined by the Past.

[Furby]

Hmmm...maybe you can clarify this for me: My understanding is that determinism is more like physics. Ball A hits ball B, therefore that is why ball B rolled. Person A hits Person B. Person B retaliates. Did person make person B retaliate? I don't think so. In my view, person B decided to respond, influenced by his anger. (that is to say invoking feelings is not controlling free will).

[vrt]

Person A hits Person B. Person B retaliates. Did person make person B retaliate? I don't think so. In my view, person B decided to respond, influenced by his anger. (that is to say invoking feelings is not controlling free will).

Seeing this post makes me reply. I am hardwired to have this response in this exact scenario, and if it was going to happen, I was always going to react in this exact fashion. You didn't influence anything.

[Furby]

It didn't make you reply though. You still had the choice.

People have the urge to have sex, but can resist it. The fact we can resist implies free will, unless something triggered a second will which overwhelmed your first intentions.
In this sense, it is less likely we are computers.

[sixers]

If free will is just an illusion, then its a good enough illusion for me.

Same can be said about consciousness, time and motion, imo

You might talk to a physicists who will tell you that all motion is just an illusion and that our consciousness creates this illusion of time because that's how we perceive reality. Even if we assume its right, we are never going to look at the world from a non-human minded perspective. So, outside of a physics class, what is the point in claiming that there is no real movement in the universe?

Ok, I know that I side tracked the free will argument. But, I hope you can see the point I was making. Even if we assume that there is no free will (Which, i'm not sure I am going to concede to), then where does that get us? A lot of problems for morality and ethics, definitely. But, if its just an illusion, then its a good enough illusion for me.

[OldTrees]

@sixers
You explained your position very well (I will remember the physics example).

If Free Will exists then it is instrumental in how we think about ethics.
If Free Will is an illusion then it is a useful illusion given how we think about ethics.

[vrt]

It didn't make you reply though. You still had the choice.

No. The electrochemical reaction in my brain resulted in me posting. There is nothing 'choosing' anything. You just don't (want to) understand that process because it devalues your religious views, and while that's understandable, it's also pointless.

[Furby]

I get the first part...but seriously: [[[I am not going to listen because I may/may not be religious]]] is stupid. Whether I am or not is irrelevant and has no bearing. If I made a post: 'well that would not work because God...' then you would have a case, but I have not made any such comments or the like. Quit making assumptions please.