Free will?

[Furby]

Okay...I will move on from the theological debate.

Lets discuss the evolution debate then. Basically, we have no free will. Chemicals are still following laws that make you think and do what you do. Thoughts/remarks? Agree/disagree? why?

[OldTrees]

Although science has not excluded the possibility of free will, it continues to restrict the possible sources and the possible effects of Free Will. As time went on, Free Will because less and less likely.

[Kress]

Okay...I will move on from the theological debate.

Lets discuss the evolution debate then. Basically, we have no free will. Chemicals are still following laws that make you think and do what you do. Thoughts/remarks? Agree/disagree? why?

as i have previously stated, i believe we are all born with the same, EXTREMELY complex algorithm. we are born and our first event of life will decide which path we take, then each of the events that follow will decide what turns in the road we take.

IF we ever were to be able to create a computer powerful enough to work out the algorithm and compare it to the algorithm paths that others are on, we can basically predict the future in a loose way.

so to answer your question: no, i dont think we have ANY free will what-so-ever

[Furby]

I think you misinterpreted free will.

1) Can free will be heavily influenced? Yes
2) Can free will be 'bordered' by events in our life? Yes

Does heavy influence and/or bordering actually decide our choice making specifically? No, but it can limit options.

Example: I want to pick up that item, but I have no arms. Not having arms is not affecting my free will, it is just an unfortunate thing I have to deal with. Now, since I can't pick that item up, and probably any other items, I am limited on things I can do, but not having arms is not making the choices for me.

[OldTrees]

I think you misinterpreted free will.

1) Can free will be heavily influenced? Yes No, this is part of what distinguishes it from a predetermined will.
2) Can free will be 'bordered' by events in our life? Yes Yes, I cannot chose to fly.

Does heavy influence and/or bordering actually decide our choice making specifically? No, but it can limit options.

Example: I want to pick up that item, but I have no arms. Not having arms is not affecting my free will, it is just an unfortunate thing I have to deal with. Now, since I can't pick that item up, and probably any other items, I am limited on things I can do, but not having arms is not making the choices for me.

I do not know who the first line was aimed at.

[Furby]

Both for Kress.

Let me ask this: all choices we make have some influence. I may tend to like certain people and not others (racism for example) based on growing up. At what level of influence does free will become predetermined will?

[Kress]

Both for Kress.

Let me ask this: all choices we make have some influence. I may tend to like certain people and not others (racism for example) based on growing up. At what level of influence does free will become predetermined will?

well, i can CHOOSE to reply to this topic, but the simple reality is is that i did not make this choice on my own. my upbringings, genetics, location, associate people, and a countless amount of other things have lead me to make this choice. i didnt make the choice, everything that has influenced me up until this point has made the choice

[Furby]

Yes, there is influence, but you still had the choice to do so. Wasn't like your upbringings, genetics, influences put you in such a tight position you had no choice but to reply. That is what Tree's means by pre-determined will. You still can make a choice. You may tend to reply here due to your upbringing/genetics, but you still have the choice.

There is a difference between tending to do certain things, free will, and predetermined free will.

[Zso_Zso]

The most interesting grey area is when you think about people with great social and psychological skills that influence the choice of others by subtle choice of words, tone of voice, body-language, charisma etc.

I'm talking about people who can make others do things that they would not have chosen by themselves (but do this without any force or invoking obligation, so not a military commander giving orders).

Where is the limit between "convincing" others via arguments or manipulating them via psychological tricks or small lies ?

[OldTrees]

Both for Kress.

Let me ask this: all choices we make have some influence. I may tend to like certain people and not others (racism for example) based on growing up. At what level of influence does free will become predetermined will?

Oh, you were using the term in its broader sense. My mistake.
If influence takes the decision away from the will then it is predetermined will. Mind control is the common example. Coercion is not sufficient.

However it is important to note that Kress is defending Determinism or the Predetermined Will. Science does support but has not proven this position (yet). Kress sees himself as a biological computer.

Where is the limit between "convincing" others via arguments or manipulating them via psychological tricks or small lies ?

Well tricking someone does not disrupt free will but that was not your question.
Your question is a very important one and I have not found a satisfactory answer despite my minor in philosophy. The best answer I have found is that convincing intends them to make a rational decision with all the information while trickery intends at most one or the other but never both.

[vrt]

Everything you do is a result of electrochemical reactions in your brain responding to input from sensory organs. However, the amount of data, the complexity of the reactions and the insane amount of possible combinations makes it unlikely that anyone will ever be able to predetermine it.

It's pretty freely worded after Hawking, but hey.

[Furby]

Everything you do is a result of electrochemical reactions in your brain responding to input from sensory organs. However, the amount of data, the complexity of the reactions and the insane amount of possible combinations makes it unlikely that anyone will ever be able to predetermine it.

It's pretty freely worded after Hawking, but hey.

That is what some people argue and it is possible, but like Trees said, not yet proven...but hey, maybe your right, maybe we will never know since the reactions will always stop us from ever proving it.

The most interesting grey area is when you think about people with great social and psychological skills that influence the choice of others by subtle choice of words, tone of voice, body-language, charisma etc.

I'm talking about people who can make others do things that they would not have chosen by themselves (but do this without any force or invoking obligation, so not a military commander giving orders).

Where is the limit between "convincing" others via arguments or manipulating them via psychological tricks or small lies ?

People, like hypnotists or those guys on TV that do certain motions and stuff to influence your thinking: all influence in my view. One way of explaining this is what I was told from on psychologist: there is a difference between putting thoughts in your head and controlling you.

Examples:

Controlling you: re wiring your brain (like a computer) to do as you please.

Thoughts: I say 'don't think of a pink elephant!!!!!!!!!!!!' You probably will think of one, but I didn't make you, I put that thought in your head.