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Offline FurbyTopic starter

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Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1064954#msg1064954
« on: April 29, 2013, 07:38:17 am »
I don't want to focus on this so much:

Spoiler for Hidden:
Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just our chemicals making us do the things we do (technically we are following a bunch of collisions of chemicals)

I am more curious on theories like: if we pray to God, is that intervening free will? Would God intervene? Does free will come at the cost of someone else's will?

Thoughts? (As always, please provide a 'why' you think/believe this so we have something to talk about)
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Offline Fireleaf

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1064977#msg1064977
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2013, 11:47:33 am »
On a fundamental level, maybe we don't have free will and maybe everything we do is predetermined, but I choose not to believe that because then what's the point in living? With regards to God and free will, that's where things get interesting. If free will exists, then I don't think God would mess with it. So if/when God does intervene, it's not by manipulating people and forcing them to do things. Just my opinion.
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Offline FurbyTopic starter

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1065038#msg1065038
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2013, 08:33:51 pm »
If you pray for God to help you be safe and God stops someone 'supernaturally' from killing you...is that God intervening on that person's free will?
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Offline Dm

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1065054#msg1065054
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2013, 09:22:31 pm »
It was never your free will to die to begin with. In fact, you used your free will to ask God to intervene on your free will out of your will not to die.

Except that now God is intervening in the other persons' free will.

Spoiler for What I hold onto in the terms of Free Will:
We all have it. You're just pushed to the point where one choice out of the several you can do is the most practical, the easiest one. You obviously always had different choices, you're only picking the more sensible one. You're taking your free will from yourself, and that's your free will to do it too.
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Offline Fireleaf

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1065076#msg1065076
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2013, 10:24:29 pm »
Quote from: Furby on April 29, 2013, 08:33:51 pm
If you pray for God to help you be safe and God stops someone 'supernaturally' from killing you...is that God intervening on that person's free will?

God wouldn't do it that way. God would cause something to happen that prevented that person from killing you, not just changing their mind.
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Offline furballdn

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1065135#msg1065135
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2013, 04:19:55 am »
For a thread in philosophy, there seems to be an awful lot about religion.

From a philosophical point of view, is everything pre-determined? Me waking up late today, eating what I ate for dinner today, even writing this post right now, what if it was all decided? The best analogy I can give is a book: Characters in a book "think" they have free will and they are acting on their own in a moment, but any outside viewer or observer can see the past, present, and future of a character in the book.
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Offline FurbyTopic starter

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1065152#msg1065152
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2013, 06:19:31 am »
Quote from: Fireleaf on April 29, 2013, 10:24:29 pm
Quote from: Furby on April 29, 2013, 08:33:51 pm
If you pray for God to help you be safe and God stops someone 'supernaturally' from killing you...is that God intervening on that person's free will?

God wouldn't do it that way. God would cause something to happen that prevented that person from killing you, not just changing their mind.

So, isn't that a disturbance into the other person's free will to kill you? God makes your life better at the cost of someone else's experience in life. Now, if God takes you through a different route, then I think that would not interfere at all...so I think. Your thoughts?

Quote from: furballdn on April 30, 2013, 04:19:55 am
Not using religion.
For a thread in philosophy, there seems to be an awful lot about religion.

From a philosophical point of view, is everything pre-determined? Me waking up late today, eating what I ate for dinner today, even writing this post right now, what if it was all decided? The best analogy I can give is a book: Characters in a book "think" they have free will and they are acting on their own in a moment, but any outside viewer or observer can see the past, present, and future of a character in the book.

We are just using the best example people use to explain free will as well as from the point of view 'if God exists.'
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1065158#msg1065158
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2013, 06:49:10 am »
Quote from: Furby on April 30, 2013, 06:19:31 am
Quote from: Fireleaf on April 29, 2013, 10:24:29 pm
Quote from: Furby on April 29, 2013, 08:33:51 pm
If you pray for God to help you be safe and God stops someone 'supernaturally' from killing you...is that God intervening on that person's free will?

God wouldn't do it that way. God would cause something to happen that prevented that person from killing you, not just changing their mind.

So, isn't that a disturbance into the other person's free will to kill you? God makes your life better at the cost of someone else's experience in life. Now, if God takes you through a different route, then I think that would not interfere at all...so I think. Your thoughts?
You are playing a poker game. You bluff. The other player calls your bluff. Did they disturb your free will? No. Free will is the capacity to make a choice rather than have the choice be predetermined. You had the choice to bluff or fold. The other player has a choice to call or fold. Both players had free will. The killer had a choice to try to kill or not to try to kill. You had a choice to pray or not to pray. God had a choice to summon a wall or not to summon a wall. All members had choices.
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Offline FurbyTopic starter

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1065161#msg1065161
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2013, 07:01:56 am »
See...that is where we run into a problem: are people who believe in God people with access to manipulate other's will? That is not fair.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1065169#msg1065169
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2013, 08:45:53 am »
Quote from: Furby on April 30, 2013, 07:01:56 am
See...that is where we run into a problem: are people who believe in God people with access to manipulate other's will? That is not fair.
Creating a wall would not be manipulating the other's will.
Changing their mind would be manipulating the other's will.
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Offline FurbyTopic starter

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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1065266#msg1065266
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2013, 08:08:08 pm »
Agreed.

What if the killer prayed to God to let him be successful?
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Re: Free will? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=48874.msg1065272#msg1065272
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2013, 08:47:36 pm »
Quote from: Furby on April 30, 2013, 08:08:08 pm
Agreed.

What if the killer prayed to God to let him be successful?
Well I would imagine if god did anything or almost anything that people prayed to him for then he would have the killer succeed.
If he is restrictive on good vs bad ( in his view ) than it would depend on the killer.
If he was an ends justify the means type and cares not about the deeds of the one that prays to him then it would depend if letting the killer succeed or not is best fir his "plan". ( I say him/his referring to God because it is just how I started typing it. I am not saying God is anything by "him" or "he" unless otherwise stated. )

If he dose not disrupt free will then he would not want to be seen taking physical action either.
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