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Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg382894#msg382894
« on: August 21, 2011, 01:27:37 am »
Topic. Want to hear other peoples opinions before giving my own.
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Offline ZephyrPhantom

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg382895#msg382895
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2011, 01:29:31 am »
It depends on what end you are aiming for, and what sentient entities (usually people) are affected.

Offline maverixk

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg382896#msg382896
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2011, 01:31:12 am »
Well this is a very vague question. without a situation I don't think I can really answer this.
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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg382902#msg382902
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2011, 01:38:57 am »
I say no, because if it's not ethical to begin with, then the end is an excuse, after the fact. The end is never certain until it's over, and you'd be doing something bad for no reason if the end didn't come out the way you hoped.

Offline BluePriestTopic starter

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg382906#msg382906
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2011, 01:47:36 am »
What wold have to be the ratio of good to bad for it to be acceptable then? Just using a completely arbitrary scale of 1-10  for good and bad deeds, would a level 1 bad deed be ok if it caused a level 2 good deed to occur? I know im not being very specific, but I want it to be pretty open.
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Offline Rutarete

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg382909#msg382909
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2011, 01:50:51 am »
Think practically, and the answer will be formed in your mind. (Well, it did for me.)
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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg382914#msg382914
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2011, 01:58:39 am »
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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg383142#msg383142
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2011, 05:39:08 pm »
All actions (even those generally accepted as "good" or "moral") have unintended consequences, so in most cases it's probably impossible to tell without hindsight.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg383187#msg383187
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2011, 06:47:10 pm »
Agents (things that can act instead of being used) influence reality through choices. There are 3 parts of the choice that are commonly considered morally relevant by different philosophers.

Intent
Action
Consequences

The statement "the ends can justify the means" indicates that the Consequences are morally relevant AND the Action is not morally relevant. (it does not comment on the moral relevance/irrelevance of Intent)

No I do not believe the ends can justify the means.

I personally consider the past to be a part of the consequences of choices. This means the actions taken leave an imprint in the consequences beyond that of the other effects caused. This imprint the means leave in the future's past can IMHO unjustify the means.
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Offline maverixk

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg383202#msg383202
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2011, 07:30:40 pm »
I think the ends can justify the means. But it all depends on what the end is, and what means you used to get there.
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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg388713#msg388713
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2011, 12:36:08 am »
Interesting concept.
IMO, if you could guarantee the end you wanted, then yes, it is justified. However, as we live in the real world, you can't be sure, and you're taking a gamble with every choice.
Is it right that the European powers/US conquered the natives of the Western Hemisphere? No, but would those of us in the US change that? Probably not.
Most of us probably wouldn't stop the industrial revolution, even though it has amplified some of our greatest problems (e.g war, imperialism)
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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg388722#msg388722
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2011, 01:11:16 am »
This question has struck me as fundamentally flawed.  It doesn't specify which ends; the ends that were intended?  The ends that happened as a direct result? The collection of all significant* results, direct or indirect, that stemmed from the means?  Personally, I think it should be the latter for the purposes of discussion.  When we talk about bad means, I think we really mean a course of action that will produce a specific positive result (the "ends" as usually meant), but that will also produce some negative results, probably indirectly.

Example: an unlicensed surgeon performs experimental surgeries, saving the lives of some people that would have died at the hands of a licensed surgeon using conventional procedures, but cutting short others.  He does not inform his patients that he is unlicensed, because he fears otherwise they would decline his services.  He makes a good deal of money through these fraudulent means.  He believes he has done a great good by offering some people a new lease on life; these are the "ends" he was aiming for, and they were bought with the blood of others.  The reason we question his means is precisely because of the negative results they've had; if his means had no negative results, they wouldn't be questionable.

*I use the word "significant" to mean any results that are not a "butterfly effect" consequence that could never have been predicted.

 

anything
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