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Offline Belthus

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg401628#msg401628
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2011, 02:43:30 pm »
"Stealing from the world" doesn't make much sense. In order to steal, both parties have to have concepts of property and rightful ownership. Humans have those concepts, but an inanimate world does not. Animals have a rudimentary form, as seen when they defend a kill or a territory.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg401645#msg401645
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2011, 03:21:21 pm »
"Stealing from the world" doesn't make much sense. In order to steal, both parties have to have concepts of property and rightful ownership. Humans have those concepts, but an inanimate world does not. Animals have a rudimentary form, as seen when they defend a kill or a territory.
Incorrect. Rights based ethics are not a subjective moral philosophy. It may be the case that trees and rocks have property rights to themselves and if that is the case then taking them outside of trade or charity is theft. Most people either dismiss the idea of trees and rocks having property rights, OR they excuse it with Intent or Consequence based ethics, OR they propose a method for Just trade with nonsapient entities (Locke).
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Offline Belthus

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg402016#msg402016
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2011, 06:45:01 am »
It may be the case that trees and rocks have property rights to themselves and if that is the case then taking them outside of trade or charity is theft.
How? Whose work attributes property rights to trees and rocks? How do rocks conduct trade or give themselves in charity? You might as well endorse Xerxes having the sea whipped for delaying his bridge at the Hellespont.

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg402076#msg402076
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2011, 10:44:48 am »
It may be the case that trees and rocks have property rights to themselves and if that is the case then taking them outside of trade or charity is theft.
How? Whose work attributes property rights to trees and rocks? How do rocks conduct trade or give themselves in charity? You might as well endorse Xerxes having the sea whipped for delaying his bridge at the Hellespont.
I can give my pet rock $1000 by placing 10 $100 bills on it, and now my pet rock owns that money (from my perspective), and if my brother comes and picks the 10 $100 bills off of it, then my brother has (again, from my perspective) just stolen that money from my pet rock by taking advantage of my pet rock's inability to declare its rights.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg402182#msg402182
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2011, 04:28:19 pm »
It may be the case that trees and rocks have property rights to themselves and if that is the case then taking them outside of trade or charity is theft.
How? Whose work attributes property rights to trees and rocks? How do rocks conduct trade or give themselves in charity? You might as well endorse Xerxes having the sea whipped for delaying his bridge at the Hellespont.
Ah, so you are asserting that property rights are derived from labor? How? Are you sure that is the cause of property rights for humans? Do I own my blood?

Note: It is wise to note the difference between someone asserting a possibility is logically possible and asserting that the possibility is in fact the case. I will continue to play Devil's advocate for you.
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Offline Belthus

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg402211#msg402211
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2011, 05:46:08 pm »
Ah, so you are asserting that property rights are derived from labor? How? Are you sure that is the cause of property rights for humans? Do I own my blood?
I was referring to written work, as in published philosophy. You are more familiar with that literature. So which rights philosophers attribute rights to inanimate objects or species without nervous systems? Where may I go to learn more of the rights of rocks and trees? Who has come up with a rights framework in which cognitive ability is irrelevant? Which philosophers believe that rocks and trees can have moral standing?

Offline Belthus

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg402225#msg402225
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2011, 06:07:39 pm »
I can give my pet rock $1000 by placing 10 $100 bills on it, and now my pet rock owns that money (from my perspective), and if my brother comes and picks the 10 $100 bills off of it, then my brother has (again, from my perspective) just stolen that money from my pet rock by taking advantage of my pet rock's inability to declare its rights.
The pet rock doesn't have rights. You can give protection to objects and species that don't have rights. That is what we do when regulating and managing natural resources, protecting endangered species, etc. However, this is all done by those who have rights through their participation in society. You and your brother are the ones who make or break the rules; the pet rock and the money are merely objects to be acted upon.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg402404#msg402404
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2011, 11:58:33 pm »
Ah, so you are asserting that property rights are derived from labor? How? Are you sure that is the cause of property rights for humans? Do I own my blood?
I was referring to written work, as in published philosophy. You are more familiar with that literature. So which rights philosophers attribute rights to inanimate objects or species without nervous systems? Where may I go to learn more of the rights of rocks and trees? Who has come up with a rights framework in which cognitive ability is irrelevant? Which philosophers believe that rocks and trees can have moral standing?
Oh, sorry for misunderstanding.
I was not claiming that I or another philosopher out there does believe that rocks and plants have rights. However it can make logical sense to claim they have rights depending on the particular person's explanation for how rights exist. For example: If property rights are derived from the conversion of Time into product, then the product derived from the conversion of Time on the part of the rock or plant could be conceived as owned by the rock or plant.

We are talking about moral Rights and not Legal rights correct?
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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg402444#msg402444
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2011, 02:33:08 am »
It depends on the situation but in most cases (in my opinion) I reckon the ends do justify the means, though I also believe thats whats gotten the human race into as much trouble as it is now. Most see things one way or another they seem unable to look at things from another persons point of view nor accept it, so therefore create arguements which can then lead to war in the long run if they are left to their own deivices. Though not in all cases but in most that seems true. I'm not here to argue, I have better things to do with my time than argue about the same subject that has been arguement central for the past who knows how many years now, and all thats happened is caused people to end up hating others or stressing them out while the convosation just goes on in a massive circle.
I agree if we go by the concept of "Who has been here the longest" then trees, plants, insects etc do have more rights to this planet than human beings do. I think of the human race as more of a plague on the planet, we take what we need at first but then take more and more and more until the thing dies then make plans to move on to kill the next thing by taking everything it has to offer. Though my views may seem a bit...heartless I guess some would call it I really don't mind what they think, freedom of thought is one thing that is allowed. Your allowed your own opinion on what I think but this seems to be very much off topic to what was being dicussed or indeed asked by the question.  So back to the question for me :)
Like I said it depends on the situation but sometimes you have to go backwards, look at it again and find another way to go forwards. Atleast thats partly how I see things :) Really interesting things have been said here thank you for starting up this convosation, now to sit back and watch the rest of it unfold :)

Offline Belthus

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg402512#msg402512
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2011, 05:34:17 am »
I was not claiming that I or another philosopher out there does believe that rocks and plants have rights. However it can make logical sense to claim they have rights depending on the particular person's explanation for how rights exist. For example: If property rights are derived from the conversion of Time into product, then the product derived from the conversion of Time on the part of the rock or plant could be conceived as owned by the rock or plant.
It's amazing that you take this idea seriously, whereas my statement — that an action (taking something) cannot be morally blameworthy (stealing) unless the actor knows the moral standard (that thing belongs to someone else, and others shouldn't take it without permission) — is "incorrect." I say that my reasoning falls in familiar territory in moral philosophy, whereas yours is not only completely novel but so laughably shoddy that you refuse to commit yourself fully to it.

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg402529#msg402529
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2011, 06:04:36 am »
I was not claiming that I or another philosopher out there does believe that rocks and plants have rights. However it can make logical sense to claim they have rights depending on the particular person's explanation for how rights exist. For example: If property rights are derived from the conversion of Time into product, then the product derived from the conversion of Time on the part of the rock or plant could be conceived as owned by the rock or plant.
It's amazing that you take this idea seriously, whereas my statement — that an action (taking something) cannot be morally blameworthy (stealing) unless the actor knows the moral standard (that thing belongs to someone else, and others shouldn't take it without permission) — is "incorrect." I say that my reasoning falls in familiar territory in moral philosophy, whereas yours is not only completely novel but so laughably shoddy that you refuse to commit yourself fully to it.
Oh that ("That an action cannot be morally blameworthy unless the actor knows the moral standard.") I will commit to declare I personally believe it to be false due to the following 2 beliefs I hold.

1) I believe Knowledge is more than Justified True Belief (Gettier problem). I think we would all be hard pressed to provide sufficient proof for our ethical beliefs for them to qualify as Knowledge.
2) I believe Immorality can occur.

I do not believe that plants and rocks have property rights but I wanted to point out my belief that I could be wrong on this topic and thus it would behoove the three of us to not dismiss the possibility offhand.
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Offline Pineapple

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Re: Do the ends justify the means? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=30124.msg402530#msg402530
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2011, 06:05:05 am »
What makes my brother, from my perspective, more worthy of having basic rights than a robot that looks exactly like my brother and, from my perspective again, acts like my brother, but does not have free will or internal cognitive functions? And what's the difference between the "brain + central nervous system" (or lack thereof) that the robot owns and that my pet rock owns?

Also, people who are in comas make no contribution to society, yet are they not still in possession of basic human rights. How are people in comas not objects being acted upon?

 

blarg: