Do the ends justify the means?

[0gr0]

I think that in some cases yes, but unfortunately many times everything ends up being worse

[Thalas]

I love the specific word justify. If we take it word for word, then ends never justify the means. (bad means)
But If I had chance to improve world in some crucial way (utopia for example) I would do it.

[Belthus]

Agents (things that can act instead of being used) influence reality through choices. There are 3 parts of the choice that are commonly considered morally relevant by different philosophers.

Intent
Action
Consequences

The statement "the ends can justify the means" indicates that the Consequences are morally relevant AND the Action is not morally relevant. (it does not comment on the moral relevance/irrelevance of Intent)
No I do not believe the ends can justify the means.

I personally consider the past to be a part of the consequences of choices. This means the actions taken leave an imprint in the consequences beyond that of the other effects caused. This imprint the means leave in the future's past can IMHO unjustify the means.

I would agree that completely ignoring the nature of the action is unacceptable. However, I think that most people mean that under some circumstances at least, an action that would usually be considered bad might be the only means to achieve the best possible outcome. A strict deontologist would say that consequences never matter. Others would say that good intent toward the best possible consequences in the situation may sometimes be enough to override normal restraints on actions.

[Rastafla]

Unequivocally Yes.

Bear with me here and dont jump to conclusions, look at the holocaust. It is THE worst human act in recorded history. It was horrible and senseless and showed the utter disregard for life that we humans really are capable off. Because it happened and was well documented we can show future generations and learn from it and to make sure it will never ever happen again. The jews paid the price here but 6 million lives is nothing in the grand scale of the human race's lifespan. We are animals, without experience of events we cant fathom nor care for something and work towards a better goal. A child must burn its hand before learning to stay away from fire.

To some feelings rule them and all they see is the end of lives, the acts are too horrendous. I on the other hand rest and am content in the knowledge that something similar wont ever happen. The loss of human life should be mourned not wished away. If something can happen it will happen, be glad it happened on a small scale now instead of at a greater scale later.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Either you care only for yourself, your offspring and your belief or for the human race as a whole. No or Yes. My life is forfeit for the good of humanity if it needs to be destroyed as it will serve the greater good.

[Belthus]

Bear with me here and dont jump to conclusions, look at the holocaust. It is THE worst human act in recorded history. It was horrible and senseless and showed the utter disregard for life that we humans really are capable off. Because it happened and was well documented we can show future generations and learn from it and to make sure it will never ever happen again. The jews paid the price here but 6 million lives is nothing in the grand scale of the human race's lifespan.

So you would do it again, if you thought it would teach a good lesson? There is a difference between perceiving a (tiny) silver lining to a dark cloud and your truly monstrous rationalization. I don't think you have thought this out. Either that, or you don't share the values of most people.

[OldTrees]

Unequivocally Yes.

Bear with me here and dont jump to conclusions, look at the holocaust. It is THE worst human act in recorded history. It was horrible and senseless and showed the utter disregard for life that we humans really are capable off. Because it happened and was well documented we can show future generations and learn from it and to make sure it will never ever happen again. The jews paid the price here but 6 million lives is nothing in the grand scale of the human race's lifespan. We are animals, without experience of events we cant fathom nor care for something and work towards a better goal. A child must burn its hand before learning to stay away from fire.

To some feelings rule them and all they see is the end of lives, the acts are too horrendous. I on the other hand rest and am content in the knowledge that something similar wont ever happen. The loss of human life should be mourned not wished away. If something can happen it will happen, be glad it happened on a small scale now instead of at a greater scale later.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Either you care only for yourself, your offspring and your belief or for the human race as a whole. No or Yes. My life is forfeit for the good of humanity if it needs to be destroyed as it will serve the greater good.

1) You start by saying the ends justify the means. You briefly touch on what I suspect is your reasoning ("without experience of events we can't fathom") but the majority of your post is describing how being made aware of the nature of Immorality through experience is a positive consequence to be weighed with the negative consequences of that Immorality.
2) The inability to fathom consequences without experiencing similar consequences does not explain why consequences matter in your Moral theory in the first place.
3) There is not much difference between witnessing actual Immorality and witnessing a fictional portrayal of Immorality. (I have seen fictional portrayals of Immorality that dwarfed any historical examples I know of.)

I will end by saying:
While you did not support your assertion, your derivations from your assertion are consistent with the assertion.

[glopso]

Massacre of Conservatives so we can all be Happy Liberals in the Glorious Commune is justified in my eyes.

[BluePriest]

Massacre of Conservatives so we can all be Happy Liberals in the Glorious Commune is justified in my eyes.

And conservatives are the violent ones...  thats off topic though... on topic...


Movies are great at instilling emotions. Why not go back in time and stop the holocaust from happening, and make a holocaust movie? Then people will understand the brutality.

Argument-Movies are nothing compared to actually experiencing something.
Counter Argument-I never witnessed the Holocaust, nor do I know anyone personally who witnessed the holocaust so it is nothing more than a story (albeit historical one) in my eyes.

[Rastafla]

For the record

Im not schooled on how to argue philosophy. Nor do I really want to. I just want to say what I think and give some insight into why.
I have lost family in ww2, the nazi did not only take jews to the camps. When i went to Auschwitz thanks to school (its a farily common trip for swedes in our last year before upper secondary school, most are 15 or 16 in age) it was one of a few profound moments in my life, it brought depths to the stories i got from my grandparents that I still carry with me.

Now, as an example it might not the best as people have deep feelings about it but to me it still serves an important point. The end that the nazis wanted to accomplish (perverted and deranged step towards perfection which in itself is just as stupid), and the actual end (human callousness and human misery on an scale you cant really fathom) which was how the world came to view it and then again how you choose to view that actual end.

@Belthos Do it again? What did i write to make you think that?

[Belthus]

@Belthos Do it again? What did i write to make you think that?

This topic is about the end justifying the means. The end result you mentioned was the learning of a lesson. The means was the killing of millions of people by the Nazis. You said, yes, the end (the lesson) justifies the means (killing millions). So it is only natural to extend that reasoning into the future, when people who reason as you do will feel justified in doing monstrous things to "teach a lesson."

[Rastafla]

Theres a distinction here I'm apparently failing to make. Ye gods how I hate English being my second language and also having to try to argue something I really don't want to argue, and yes people have a hard time following my train of thought. I have been told that i think in warped lines almost resembling circles.

I do not see the 6 million dead as a means that is a part of the end result. I honestly cant see where you want to go by phrasing it like that. Unless you want to boil down the holocaust into "Nazis (bad) killing jews&undesirables (innocents) = bad no matter what". Emotionally compelling but nothing else.

This topic is about the end justifying the means. The end result you mentioned was the learning of a lesson. The means was the killing of millions of people by the Nazis. You said, yes, the end (the lesson) justifies the means (killing millions). So it is only natural to extend that reasoning into the future, when people who reason as you do will feel justified in doing monstrous things to "teach a lesson."

So it is only natural to extend that reasoning into the future, when people who reason as you do will feel justified in doing monstrous things to "teach a lesson."

All that is fallacious reasoning to me, specifically the last. I don't see how you can read that at all in what I wrote. Its as if you completely jump the fact that someone later would be prevented to at all start something monstrous. They simply cant do it again, the the knowledge gained from the previous time prevent them to even try. I said as much in my first post, last in the second part.

[silux]

Yes AND No.

Actually we are alive because we steal from the world, but we mustn't 'steal' from the world.

Explanation.
We live stealing some components from air, eating animals and vegetables.
This is okay, because we can't do anything about it, except dieing.
At the same time we can improve ours lives, but maintain the balance of the environment.