Could god make a rock so large...

[Belthus]

This is more of a word game than a true paradox. Think of it this way. A hypothetically omnipotent God could (1) make a rock of any size and (2) lift a rock of any size. Those are the two actions - making and lifting. Yes to both.

The rest of the wording essentially asks whether God "can can't." It's nonsense.

... what?
The problem in the paradox is that if he can one, he  can't the other.

The problem is with the way that the size of the rock is described. If you used physical measurements, you would get more clarity. Can an omnipotent being make a rock with a mass of X kilograms? Yes, for any X. Could he lift it? Yes, for any X.

[OldTrees]

Does omnipotence include the ability to be not omnipotent?
There are 2 answers to this question:
Yes (Aka "can can't"): Then omnipotence is a meaningless term because it cannot be logically understood.
No (Aka "can can"): Then omnipotence means the ability to do anything possible. Logical contradictions do not exist in reality and thus cannot be done.

The question is only a paradox if using the paradoxical definition of omnipotence.

[ARTHANASIOS]

 First of all, I would like to say that this enigma is about the human being and not a literal rock. As far as my theological knowledge goes, the "rock" describes the human's free will and the action of "lifting" it describes the manipulation of free will from God. In other words, "Can God interfere and manipulate the free will of a human in order to make that person a good person or an evil one by force?". The Church (at least the Orthodox one where I belong) claims that God can't interfere a human's free will in order to save him/her because the will of that human wouldn't be "free" anymore.
 God either can "lift the rock" (manipulate the free will) but He doesn't because it is against His moral or can't "lift the rock" because human beings were created according to "God's image" and a human's free will is a part of the very essence of God (God can't "lift" Himself or any part of Himself).

[OldTrees]

The Jewish/Christian/Muslim god is terrible example of omnipotence unless omnipotence is only used as a hyperbolic exaggeration or religious propaganda (the original usage).

Thanks for the original context though.

[northcity4]

The Jewish/Christian/Muslim god is terrible example of omnipotence unless omnipotence is only used as a hyperbolic exaggeration or religious propaganda (the original usage).

Thanks for the original context though.

That's debatable. If we are going to say God ca't make people love him because that is insincere is to say morals/sincerity existed before God or exist with God. They could be something different which is why people still today ask: (example): is murder wrong cause God said so? Is it wrong cause God would appreciate it if you didn't? Wrong because doing murder means there is a deeper issue at part? The real question I am looking at is: is murder wrong because it has always been that way and God is just an enforcer. Again that's a debate for origin of morals.

Staying on topic: to say God can make something so big he can't life it is to say God is not the most powerful thing in the universe. Human's can build buildings, but cannot lift them.

The mathematical problem with infinity is that there is a way to cancel out infinity. Let's assume you have infinity/infinity=improper form. To fix this you take the derivative of the top and bottoms equation.

Example: pretend God is the top and rock=bottom.  example 1) x^2/x. As x->infinity, you get the 00/00. Taking the derivatives, our new equation is 2x/1. The top is clearly increasing fast and if we take another limit we get 00/1. To be more specific you can take a second derivative and get an answer of 2, and since 2>1, God wins.

If we say x/x+1, we get stuck with 1, and 1=1 which means both are equal.

Is there a mathematical equation we can give God and give the rock?

[choongmyoung]

Logic is above all, even the god.
"God controls logic" is wrong.
1=1.
p->q & q->r means p->r.
p->q means ~q->~p.

This IS a paradox, and the only reasonable answer is one of the two below:

1. God is not omnipotent.
2. There is no god.
(Or, are these same statement?)

Yeah I'm an atheist.

[OldTrees]

The Jewish/Christian/Muslim god is terrible example of omnipotence unless omnipotence is only used as a hyperbolic exaggeration or religious propaganda (the original usage).

Thanks for the original context though.

That's debatable. If we are going to say God ca't make people love him because that is insincere is to say morals/sincerity existed before God or exist with God. They could be something different which is why people still today ask: (example): is murder wrong cause God said so? Is it wrong cause God would appreciate it if you didn't? Wrong because doing murder means there is a deeper issue at part? The real question I am looking at is: is murder wrong because it has always been that way and God is just an enforcer. Again that's a debate for origin of morals.

Staying on topic: to say God can make something so big he can't life it is to say God is not the most powerful thing in the universe. Human's can build buildings, but cannot lift them.

The mathematical problem with infinity is that there is a way to cancel out infinity. Let's assume you have infinity/infinity=improper form. To fix this you take the derivative of the top and bottoms equation.

Example: pretend God is the top and rock=bottom.  example 1) x^2/x. As x->infinity, you get the 00/00. Taking the derivatives, our new equation is 2x/1. The top is clearly increasing fast and if we take another limit we get 00/1. To be more specific you can take a second derivative and get an answer of 2, and since 2>1, God wins.

If we say x/x+1, we get stuck with 1, and 1=1 which means both are equal.

Is there a mathematical equation we can give God and give the rock?

An omnipotent god can make a message that is perfectly clear. A perfectly clear message has 1 and only 1 interpretation. The holy writings of the Jewish/Christian/Muslim god are not perfectly clear. Therefore the Jewish/Christian/Muslim is not omnipotent.

The particular rock example can be solved by examining the general case. Assuming polynomials
limit as X->00    AX^B/CX^D
If B>D then the limit is 00
If B=D then the limit is A/C
If B<D then the limit is 0
Note that the limit is never equal to both 00 and 0. Therefore there is nothing in this model that both can and cannot be lifted.

[choongmyoung]

The Jewish/Christian/Muslim god is terrible example of omnipotence unless omnipotence is only used as a hyperbolic exaggeration or religious propaganda (the original usage).

Thanks for the original context though.

That's debatable. If we are going to say God ca't make people love him because that is insincere is to say morals/sincerity existed before God or exist with God. They could be something different which is why people still today ask: (example): is murder wrong cause God said so? Is it wrong cause God would appreciate it if you didn't? Wrong because doing murder means there is a deeper issue at part? The real question I am looking at is: is murder wrong because it has always been that way and God is just an enforcer. Again that's a debate for origin of morals.

Staying on topic: to say God can make something so big he can't life it is to say God is not the most powerful thing in the universe. Human's can build buildings, but cannot lift them.

The mathematical problem with infinity is that there is a way to cancel out infinity. Let's assume you have infinity/infinity=improper form. To fix this you take the derivative of the top and bottoms equation.

Example: pretend God is the top and rock=bottom.  example 1) x^2/x. As x->infinity, you get the 00/00. Taking the derivatives, our new equation is 2x/1. The top is clearly increasing fast and if we take another limit we get 00/1. To be more specific you can take a second derivative and get an answer of 2, and since 2>1, God wins.

If we say x/x+1, we get stuck with 1, and 1=1 which means both are equal.

Is there a mathematical equation we can give God and give the rock?

An omnipotent god can make a message that is perfectly clear. A perfectly clear message has 1 and only 1 interpretation. The holy writings of the Jewish/Christian/Muslim god are not perfectly clear. Therefore the Jewish/Christian/Muslim is not omnipotent.

The particular rock example can be solved by examining the general case. Assuming polynomials
limit as X->00    AX^B/CX^D
If B>D then the limit is 00
If B=D then the limit is A/C
If B<D then the limit is 0
Note that the limit is never equal to both 00 and 0. Therefore there is nothing in this model that both can and cannot be lifted.

Even though I am an atheist, it's not exactly true.
God didn't write bible. God said his words to humans, and humans wrote it.
However:
Some part of the bible is wrote by human with god's soul. (is this a correct word?) This part can said to be wrote by god.

[OldTrees]

@choongmyoung
By holy writings I was implying a dictation. This detail would not be significant to an omnipotent god. (Though it could be significant to a merely "most powerful" god)

[northcity4]

The Jewish/Christian/Muslim god is terrible example of omnipotence unless omnipotence is only used as a hyperbolic exaggeration or religious propaganda (the original usage).

Thanks for the original context though.

That's debatable. If we are going to say God ca't make people love him because that is insincere is to say morals/sincerity existed before God or exist with God. They could be something different which is why people still today ask: (example): is murder wrong cause God said so? Is it wrong cause God would appreciate it if you didn't? Wrong because doing murder means there is a deeper issue at part? The real question I am looking at is: is murder wrong because it has always been that way and God is just an enforcer. Again that's a debate for origin of morals.

Staying on topic: to say God can make something so big he can't life it is to say God is not the most powerful thing in the universe. Human's can build buildings, but cannot lift them.

The mathematical problem with infinity is that there is a way to cancel out infinity. Let's assume you have infinity/infinity=improper form. To fix this you take the derivative of the top and bottoms equation.

Example: pretend God is the top and rock=bottom.  example 1) x^2/x. As x->infinity, you get the 00/00. Taking the derivatives, our new equation is 2x/1. The top is clearly increasing fast and if we take another limit we get 00/1. To be more specific you can take a second derivative and get an answer of 2, and since 2>1, God wins.

If we say x/x+1, we get stuck with 1, and 1=1 which means both are equal.

Is there a mathematical equation we can give God and give the rock?

An omnipotent god can make a message that is perfectly clear. A perfectly clear message has 1 and only 1 interpretation. The holy writings of the Jewish/Christian/Muslim god are not perfectly clear. Therefore the Jewish/Christian/Muslim is not omnipotent.

The particular rock example can be solved by examining the general case. Assuming polynomials
limit as X->00    AX^B/CX^D
If B>D then the limit is 00
If B=D then the limit is A/C
If B<D then the limit is 0
Note that the limit is never equal to both 00 and 0. Therefore there is nothing in this model that both can and cannot be lifted.

Wrong: you forgot the scenario of the geometric series test. If x< 1, it converges. If x> or equal to 1, it diverges. In the case o f B and D, it honestly does not matter in almost every case. Plus, if B<D, you still don't understand. It doesn't equal 0. I t cannot. Let's say A=B and B is =/= D. By using L'Hospital's rules, our answer comes out to 1, and in your example, 1=1 means both are just as strong.

And to be honest it's ignorant to say "An omnipotent god can make a message that is perfectly clear. A perfectly clear message has 1 and only 1 interpretation. The holy writings of the Jewish/Christian/Muslim god are not perfectly clear. Therefore the Jewish/Christian/Muslim is not omnipotent." Maybe they are clear and people are just too stupid to understand. Have you talked with biblical scholars? Have you actually studied scripture before? I am not saying I have, but you need to be careful when you say things like that...plus I don't see how arguing about this goes with the topic. Are you honestly going to call God non-omni (whatever) on the basis you don't understand scripture? Seriously? That is what you said in your above statement.

[deidmann]

Yeah, God could do it. I can think of a few ways:
1. He makes the rock, then transforms into a weaker entity with insufficient strength.
2. He overwrites the laws of physics with different laws, eliminating any contradiction or paradox whatsover.

[northcity4]

Yeah, God could do it. I can think of a few ways:
1. He makes the rock, then transforms into a weaker entity with insufficient strength.
2. He overwrites the laws of physics with different laws, eliminating any contradiction or paradox whatsover.

But he's God. Couldn't he just get his strength back? If so, the rock does not have absolute dominance since God could come back at any time.

Example: If your the owner of a store, you can change your job title. Now, any one with a higher rank than you can boss you around, but you are still the owner, you can change your job title back to above their title at any time.