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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Best form of government? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47742.msg1058117#msg1058117
« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2013, 06:18:32 am »
Trees: calling me biased is a fallacy (ad hominem abusive-so next time watch what you say) Most people here do not understand what soviet socialism is.
I was not making an argument. I was giving advice. I apologize that my advice was offensive to you.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 11:59:07 am by OldTrees »
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Offline cometbah

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Re: Best form of government? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47742.msg1058328#msg1058328
« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2013, 12:52:23 am »
I raised two issues that are completely independent from each other. Admittedly, my first post was not adequately structured to demonstrate their independence from each other, and they became unintentionally intertwined throughout the posts. I will therefore declare them here clearly.

Issue 1
You are not listening.
AnonymousRevival made a valid argument worthy of discussion, and you refused to ackowledge its validity.
I am not claiming that AnonymousRevival's argument is correct. I merely illustrated how his/her argument is a valid response to your questions.
I have not offered my opinion on the topic when addressing this issue.

Issue 2
(This is my opinion on the topic, and is entirely independent from Issue 1. )
You seem to have an unorthodox definition for 'Soviet socialism'. If you mean Trotskyism, perhaps you should use the term 'Trotskyism'. If you mean Leninism, perhaps you should use 'Leninism'. If you do not wish to use these terms - which is perfectly okay - perhaps you should define what you mean by 'Soviet socialism'.
In the absence of explicit definition (and 'communism without errors' is not an acceptable definition), I assume you are using the default, most commonly used definition, in which case some of your statements (such as 'no country ever used it') are false.

You did provide a definition in the previous post, so I will work with that:

yes my definition is the theory trotskey gives.
it works in this way: there are tons of small businesses, but if your business gets too big, the power is then divided so you don't too powerful. There are no charities: everyone works (solves the laziness problem). Give and reward according to need, not work. Example: a pro athlete will recieve more food than I, not because he is better, but because he needs it. If I become a pro athlete, I too would get as much as he/she. This is a summary. Again it is like communism with fairness as long as you are not lazy. Another way of looking at this is capitalism without the capitalists.

Other ideas in the theory: those who know their job the best should create protocol for it. (too much to really get in detail on this part)

1.
What you described does not completely match Trotskyism. I will assume that your definition is that which you have stated, and not that which is usually described as Trotskyism.

2.
I do not understand 'capitalism without the capitalists'. Perhaps you mean capitalism without the bourgeoisie class (with the usual Marxist definition of the 'bourgeosie class').

3.
'Communism with fairness', 'communism without errors', and other similar phrases are empty without defining 'fairness', 'errors', and so on.

4.
From what you described, China practises that system.
Athletes were given more food (in the form of 'rice tickets') pre-21st century, monopolies are now closely monitored for possible conflicts with state interest, and elitism is strongly encouraged (students - at least those in the elite schools - are 'scientifically' sorted into groups from a very early age based on their strengths, and the ultra-specialization and elitism only increases as they age).

In fact, China describes its system as 'Chinese socialism', which has its roots in Maoism, which, in turn, is built upon Marxist-Leninism.

Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Best form of government? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47742.msg1058383#msg1058383
« Reply #62 on: April 09, 2013, 04:17:13 am »
China uses neo-confucianism at the moment. They are far from soviet socialism or trotskeyism. The reason I connect trotskey and Lenin is trotskey had the thoery and Lenin is the prime example used in philosophy for his theory. After him, we see similar trends in China, Cuba, South America, Korea...etc. What makes the countries after Lenin similar is that all had capitalist influence (Rockefeller controlling Guatemala economy as well as in Iran during the 1900s) and most had to resort to war communism (divert all resources possible to the war effort and stop anyone being a blockade to doing so).

As for Revival's posts I did not disregard her posts which you guys have taken way out of hand. 1) she posted there are issues in many forms of government and she gave examples. She makes the claim there is no best form of government. I said her claims were weak (posing one issue doesn't really make the government form so bad if it's a small issue) and was hasty to her conclusion (One post doesn't make it all worth while).

Later revival even cleared up: it has to be the people that make the government work. I then argued that this isn't the case...I am making an argument and instead of just say 'nuh-uh' I posted that trotskeyism works out that issue. Revival even said she did not talk about trotskyism in her post and so I wanted it to get recognition.

@trees: I understand you were not making an argument, I just wanted to trotskeyism to get the recognition it deserved since everytime I tried pushing the issue it was battered down to false presumptions at the time.

Lastly, I did listen to your guy's comments. So quit accusing me of not doing so. Also, my definition was a summary. I am not going to make a huge post on the specifics and details that go into it. I feel my summary is suffice in that I addressed the major issues in simple ways.

'Capitalism without the capitalists:' another way of looking at the theory. Let's take Guatemala for example. There is a rich ruling area (house high walls surrounding it) and they run the economy. Now, let's make it so those people didn't exist and the country could continue to run on it's own. How do you feel things would change?

Basically, what if we had an economy in which we had a capitalist society but limited how much power one could get? (In hungary as I posted very early in this thread: they have a type of this practice).

Yes there are issues with all forms of government, but what if we identify those problems and eliminate them? I don't think it's the people who need to abide, but rather who has the power and how that power is distributed.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Best form of government? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47742.msg1058404#msg1058404
« Reply #63 on: April 09, 2013, 07:52:07 am »
everyone works (solves the laziness problem). Give and reward according to need, not work.
How does this solve the laziness problem? There is no external incentive to do better than the minimal quality.

'Capitalism without the capitalists:' another way of looking at the theory. Let's take Guatemala for example. There is a rich ruling area (house high walls surrounding it) and they run the economy. Now, let's make it so those people didn't exist and the country could continue to run on it's own. How do you feel things would change?
Your example sounds like 'without the rich' rather than 'without the capitalists'. Remember in capitalism almost anyone can be a capitalist not just the rich.

This example would result in capping wealth inequality* and would have the consequences of artificially reduced potential investment, an incentive for the most wealthy (productive in capitalism) to retire and slower growth.
*Capping wealth inequality has a list of benefits that I am sure you already knew so I did not list them.
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Best form of government? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47742.msg1058526#msg1058526
« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2013, 09:48:16 pm »
Well...for the wealth, it's true. There is no incentive to get super rich because it basically won't happen, but here is trotskey's view: those people can just leave the country. He didn't seem to see any problems with the government if there are no rich people. Now politics can run without the few rich paying people into government and money isn't controlling people's decisions in government.

Capitalist=rich as you put it. I was referring to people like Carnegies, Rockefellers, etc as you put it.

Laziness: There is the incentive to work. There are no charities and so if you are dying, you have to work to live. So, if a poor person gets lazy, no one will probably help him except by telling him to go work. As for handicapp people, I am sure there are jobs they will open for them.

I am not sure what you meant by external incentive. Plus as always, people can always leave the country.

What are your takes on the downside to a capped wealth or limited wealth economy?
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Offline cometbah

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Re: Best form of government? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47742.msg1058579#msg1058579
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2013, 12:34:27 am »
China uses neo-confucianism at the moment. They are far from soviet socialism or trotskeyism.

(Neo-)Confucianism is not a political system, and it was actively hunted during the cultural revolution.

Since we have already encountered the problem of definition mismatch, I would advise against using '-ism's in general.

You defined what you call 'Soviet socialism' (athletes get more food, control of businesses, elitism/meritocracy). I illustrated that all elements presented by you are being practised/had been practised by China. It should therefore satisfy your definition, whatever you choose to call it.

Quote
Revival
His/her point is not that small problems prove the weakness of a system.

The point was that the same system, when practised by different people, can yield different results.

Socialism under Lenin, for instance, would yield different results from Socialism under Spongebob.

The practising party is therefore the determining factor of how the implementation of a system would turn out, not the system itself.

In other words: there is no 'best form of government', only 'the best group of people practising some arbitrary form of government'.

Quote
but here is trotskey's view: those people can just leave the country.
Trotsky promoted the idea of a permanent, global communist revolution, and rejected Stalin's idea of socialism in a state.

The people who 'leave the country' will eventually - out of neccesity for the survival of a socialist state that bypasses the capitalist revolution, according to Trotsky - be put into the same situation again.

Offline OldTrees

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Re: Best form of government? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47742.msg1058637#msg1058637
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2013, 03:45:44 am »
Laziness: There is the incentive to work. There are no charities and so if you are dying, you have to work to live. So, if a poor person gets lazy, no one will probably help him except by telling him to go work. As for handicapp people, I am sure there are jobs they will open for them.

I am not sure what you meant by external incentive. Plus as always, people can always leave the country.

What are your takes on the downside to a capped wealth or limited wealth economy?
External incentives come from outside the self (Money, Threats, Requests). Internal incentives come from inside the self (Passion, Drive, Perfectionism)

Unlike normal socialism, Soviet socialism solves the "not going to work" laziness problem by refusing to support them. However it still has the "minimum quality of work" laziness problem. People in a soviet socialism that are not passionate about their work (passion being an internal incentive) will provide the lowest quality of work they can because they are not being paid based on quality (additional money for good quality is an external incentive). They get paid for doing a job, are not rewarded for doing a good job and doing a bad job tends to be easier.

In theory both capped wealth and normal capitalism have solutions to the rich. In theory capitalism has faster growth (improves the standard of living for the poor) and greater opportunity to change the world for the better (No Rockefeller means no Bill Gates). Only capitalism has been tried so I cannot compare the relative amount of corruption. However every system so far has been corrupted to some extend by the corrupt. So it would be a good idea to test this capped wealth answer to see what corruption arises.
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Best form of government? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47742.msg1058654#msg1058654
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2013, 04:57:30 am »
Thank you trees.

Comet...I would feel better if Revival explained herself in more detail.

1) I did not say meritocracy/elitism is part of the soviet theory I displayed. I think I made a mistake in explaining the runner example. I am not saying a runner is better than the handicap down the street. I am say that athletes are good for the community and should we need a talented athlete, we will give according not to work, but to need. This means, the Athlete will always be treated like the average civilian. We are only giving him/her as much as needed to be a healthy athlete. As in America today, we also give a very rich lifestyle which comes with issues...here, we don't do that. If we rewarded according to work or abilities...we get a rich/poor dispute.

Let's say I was born in a place where we cut down trees and there is this super strong guy there. Now, I am extremely smart and could be doing...math lets say, and be making tons of $ that way, but I was born in this place where all we do is cut down trees. If we reward according to work, the strong guy is going to easily pass me up in work. If we reward according to need, the strong guy will not make more money than me necessarily, but rather be fed better (for more energy), but it makes him the same as me as far as status.

This is one of the key elements Trotskey makes and as far as I am concerned, China does not practice this nor does any other country I know.

Secondly comet, I already understand revival's argument and if you read my last post, I said 'here is my reason to why I don't agree.'
Third: by the time those people get consumed by this theory, if it ever got that big, they will either be old/dead and even if they are alive...they can deal with it. Trotskey didn't have a problem with that. What will those few rich seeking people do to get their way anyways?

@ trees: true...but let's say you'll get fired for low quality? Now: you need to work to live (can't be lazy) and if I do poor work, I will get fired (can't be lazy in my work as well). Provides more incentive.
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Offline OldTrees

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Re: Best form of government? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47742.msg1058688#msg1058688
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2013, 08:28:52 am »
@ trees: true...but let's say you'll get fired for low quality? Now: you need to work to live (can't be lazy) and if I do poor work, I will get fired (can't be lazy in my work as well). Provides more incentive.
However that method merely motivates people to do the minimum amount of work (Something I had already assumed before my comment). Low quality is defined as this bare minimum. The problem is that there is no incentive for people to do better quality (unlike when wages are tied to quality).
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Best form of government? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47742.msg1058784#msg1058784
« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2013, 07:49:54 pm »
Well, if we reward according to work, the doing the bare minimum will profit you the bare minimum. If that supports you...cool. If not, then it's up to you to decide if you want to live in worse poverty or not. How would that work?
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Offline cometbah

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Re: Best form of government? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47742.msg1058847#msg1058847
« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2013, 11:25:50 pm »
Would there be 'wages' at all?

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Re: Best form of government? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=47742.msg1058855#msg1058855
« Reply #71 on: April 10, 2013, 11:38:12 pm »
Yes, there would be some form of payment. People have right to their own homes and own lively hoods still.
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