Are fetus' humans?

[northcity4]

Instead of speaking of zombies, maybe they could be spoken of as 'mentally sick and violent people'.
The zombie thing is just unrealistic, and my replacement I think can serve the same purpose.

This is why I used a comatose person (neither reasoning nor feeling) as an example of a human that is neither reasoning nor thinking.
Since there exists the potential for a human that is neither reasoning nor thinking, neither reasoning nor thinking is a necessary condition of humanity.

When I read that statement, all it says to me is it doesn't matter. I think a better way to put it is reason/thinking is part of the definition.

1) A comatose person neither reasons nor feels.
2) A comatose homo sapien is a human.
3) If reasoning or feeling is a necessary condition of humanity then all humans can reason or feel.
4:3+1) If reasoning or feeling is a necessary condition of humanity then no comatose person is a human.
5:4+2) Neither reasoning nor feeling is a necessary condition of humanity.

If you disagree with my conclusion then identify the step (4 or 5) that is invalid or premise (1, 2 or 3) that is false and then defend your claim.

4 and 5 are logical from 1-3, so let me explain 1-3.

Comatose humans still reason and feel. They could be in a dream. Most people in the comatose state start remember things and thinking about the past. Does reason/feelings have to be something we notice or does it only matter to the person in a comatose state?

Good point though because this allows us to talk about people who 'black-out' for a moment. Are those people who 'black-out' non-human for that moment? They are basically unconscious without thought/feeling.

[OldTrees]

Instead of speaking of zombies, maybe they could be spoken of as 'mentally sick and violent people'.
The zombie thing is just unrealistic, and my replacement I think can serve the same purpose.

This is why I used a comatose person (neither reasoning nor feeling) as an example of a human that is neither reasoning nor thinking.
Since there exists the potential for a human that is neither reasoning nor thinking, neither reasoning nor thinking is a necessary condition of humanity.

When I read that statement, all it says to me is it doesn't matter. I think a better way to put it is reason/thinking is part of the definition.

1) A comatose person neither reasons nor feels.
2) A comatose homo sapien is a human.
3) If reasoning or feeling is a necessary condition of humanity then all humans can reason or feel.
4:3+1) If reasoning or feeling is a necessary condition of humanity then no comatose person is a human.
5:4+2) Neither reasoning nor feeling is a necessary condition of humanity.

If you disagree with my conclusion then identify the step (4 or 5) that is invalid or premise (1, 2 or 3) that is false and then defend your claim.

4 and 5 are logical from 1-3, so let me explain 1-3.

Comatose humans still reason and feel. They could be in a dream. Most people in the comatose state start remember things and thinking about the past. Does reason/feelings have to be something we notice or does it only matter to the person in a comatose state?

Good point though because this allows us to talk about people who 'black-out' for a moment. Are those people who 'black-out' non-human for that moment? They are basically unconscious without thought/feeling.

Source: http://www.binscorner.com/pages/w/what-is-a-coma.html

What is a Coma?
The word coma comes from the Greek word koma , which means "state of sleep." But being in a coma is not the same as being asleep. You can awaken someone who is asleep by talking to them or touching them. The same is not true for a comatose person -- he is alive and breathing, but so unconscious that he can't respond to any stimuli (such as pain or the sound of a voice) or perform any voluntary actions. The brain is still functioning, but at its most basic level. To understand this, we first need to review the parts of the brain and how they work.

When a person is in a coma (excluding vegetative comas) they are unconcious and unable to feel stimuli. My understanding of this source is that some comatose people are unable to reason as well.

While I would like to use a blackout as evidence, a blackout is merely a period where memory is not recorded. The person could still be conscious.

[northcity4]

Yes, that is true, but what if they are in a dream? Does this count? I have heard stories of people in comas not wanting to wake up because they get to live a little 're-life' within a dream they are having.

Let's assume the person has a black-out for 15sec. During this time is was confirmed this person was basically in a coma, recorded no memory-->literally dead in a sense for 15sec.

Right before they wake up, some random guy throws a javelin and it hits this person within the 15sec period. Can the javelin thrower actually say he didn't kill a human?

Also, in the article (by the way thank you), that one girl who continued breathing even after the tube was removed: a person to still be breathing must be alive. Where there is life in a coma state there must be active stimuli. Some doctors agree that no stimuli to the brain=death. People in coma's therefore still have stimuli or thus they would have died right there and then.

Explanation: in order for a circulatory system to work, there must be some stimuli still working. A tube to give air is not enough, although is extremely helpful. The other part is the take in of air and distributing within the body. Perfect example is the diffusion from air inside a lung through the lung into the blood stream. There must be active stimuli for this to be taking place or then the tube is really just a waste of time.

[OldTrees]

Yes, that is true, but what if they are in a dream? Does this count? I have heard stories of people in comas not wanting to wake up because they get to live a little 're-life' within a dream they are having.

Let's assume the person has a black-out for 15sec. During this time is was confirmed this person was basically in a coma, recorded no memory-->literally dead in a sense for 15sec.

Right before they wake up, some random guy throws a javelin and it hits this person within the 15sec period. Can the javelin thrower actually say he didn't kill a human?

Also, in the article (by the way thank you), that one girl who continued breathing even after the tube was removed: a person to still be breathing must be alive. Where there is life in a coma state there must be active stimuli. Some doctors agree that no stimuli to the brain=death. People in coma's therefore still have stimuli or thus they would have died right there and then.

Explanation: in order for a circulatory system to work, there must be some stimuli still working. A tube to give air is not enough, although is extremely helpful. The other part is the take in of air and distributing within the body. Perfect example is the diffusion from air inside a lung through the lung into the blood stream. There must be active stimuli for this to be taking place or then the tube is really just a waste of time.

Do they all dream? My point is there exists a being that was unable to reason/feel for a period while still human. Since they don't all dream the question does not appear relevant.

A blackout is not a state of unconsiousness. Medically death means no brain activity not merely no memory being recorded. Comatose patients are not brain dead.

Breathing does not take active stimuli.
See above about a more accurate definition of death.

Automatic systems like the circulatory system do not require active stimuli and are possible without a consciousnesses since they are involuntary systems.

[northcity4]

Yes, that is true, but what if they are in a dream? Does this count? I have heard stories of people in comas not wanting to wake up because they get to live a little 're-life' within a dream they are having.

Let's assume the person has a black-out for 15sec. During this time is was confirmed this person was basically in a coma, recorded no memory-->literally dead in a sense for 15sec.

Right before they wake up, some random guy throws a javelin and it hits this person within the 15sec period. Can the javelin thrower actually say he didn't kill a human?

Also, in the article (by the way thank you), that one girl who continued breathing even after the tube was removed: a person to still be breathing must be alive. Where there is life in a coma state there must be active stimuli. Some doctors agree that no stimuli to the brain=death. People in coma's therefore still have stimuli or thus they would have died right there and then.

Explanation: in order for a circulatory system to work, there must be some stimuli still working. A tube to give air is not enough, although is extremely helpful. The other part is the take in of air and distributing within the body. Perfect example is the diffusion from air inside a lung through the lung into the blood stream. There must be active stimuli for this to be taking place or then the tube is really just a waste of time.

Do they all dream? My point is there exists a being that was unable to reason/feel for a period while still human. Since they don't all dream the question does not appear relevant.

A blackout is not a state of unconsiousness. Medically death means no brain activity not merely no memory being recorded. Comatose patients are not brain dead.

Breathing does not take active stimuli.
See above about a more accurate definition of death.

Automatic systems like the circulatory system do not require active stimuli and are possible without a consciousnesses since they are involuntary systems.

Incorrect. It is involuntary, but doesn't not mean it magically happens. I suggest you re visit your sources and ask a doctor on this one. You need active stimuli to breathe. One example is http://science.jrank.org/pages/5846/Respiratory-System-Pulmonary-ventilation.html.

As far as being human, you must be a live. Disagree or agree?

[OldTrees]

Yes, that is true, but what if they are in a dream? Does this count? I have heard stories of people in comas not wanting to wake up because they get to live a little 're-life' within a dream they are having.

Let's assume the person has a black-out for 15sec. During this time is was confirmed this person was basically in a coma, recorded no memory-->literally dead in a sense for 15sec.

Right before they wake up, some random guy throws a javelin and it hits this person within the 15sec period. Can the javelin thrower actually say he didn't kill a human?

Also, in the article (by the way thank you), that one girl who continued breathing even after the tube was removed: a person to still be breathing must be alive. Where there is life in a coma state there must be active stimuli. Some doctors agree that no stimuli to the brain=death. People in coma's therefore still have stimuli or thus they would have died right there and then.

Explanation: in order for a circulatory system to work, there must be some stimuli still working. A tube to give air is not enough, although is extremely helpful. The other part is the take in of air and distributing within the body. Perfect example is the diffusion from air inside a lung through the lung into the blood stream. There must be active stimuli for this to be taking place or then the tube is really just a waste of time.

Do they all dream? My point is there exists a being that was unable to reason/feel for a period while still human. Since they don't all dream the question does not appear relevant.

A blackout is not a state of unconsiousness. Medically death means no brain activity not merely no memory being recorded. Comatose patients are not brain dead.

Breathing does not take active stimuli.
See above about a more accurate definition of death.

Automatic systems like the circulatory system do not require active stimuli and are possible without a consciousnesses since they are involuntary systems.

Incorrect. It is involuntary, but doesn't not mean it magically happens. I suggest you re visit your sources and ask a doctor on this one. You need active stimuli to breathe. One example is http://science.jrank.org/pages/5846/Respiratory-System-Pulmonary-ventilation.html.

As far as being human, you must be a live. Disagree or agree?

From your source:
"We cannot, however, consciously stop breathing for a prolonged period. A buildup of carbon dioxide and hydrogen ions in the bloodstream stimulates the breathing centers to become active no matter what we want to do."
Not breathing is not my idea of an active stimuli. Since not breathing is all that is required to trigger breathing, I think it does not require active stimuli.

I will assume all humans are alive.

[northcity4]

Ok, so going with Humans must be alive, is a fetus biologically alive? You are the biologist so I will trust what you say.

You state feelings/reason are neither necessary nor sufficient means of being human-->so what is next to talk about? What in your opinion makes something human?

[OldTrees]

Ok, so going with Humans must be alive, is a fetus biologically alive? You are the biologist so I will trust what you say.

You state feelings/reason are neither necessary nor sufficient means of being human-->so what is next to talk about? What inn your opinion makes something human?

Yes, a fetus has all the necessary characteristics of biological life.

We could identify more difference between fetuses and adult humans. Then we can check to see if there does/could exist a human without that characteristic.

[northcity4]

Yeah I can't think of any others nor does google have any suggestions. All it talks about is the development stages/feelings/reason/ability to design/similar things as well.