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Offline artimies7

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1021160#msg1021160
« Reply #48 on: December 10, 2012, 03:11:45 pm »
Oh, i don't disagree with the fact that fertilisation makes ova different from fetuses. What i disagree with is your exclusion of ovas (and spermatozoidons :P) as potential humans, while you do include fetuses.

Neither ovas or ... those other things all on their own will become a living human. So you could destroy as much of them on their own as you want, but when you combine them, then you've got what could be a person one day.
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Offline Jenkar

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1021172#msg1021172
« Reply #49 on: December 10, 2012, 04:07:58 pm »
A fetus can't become a human without a womb (werether artificial once we manage to build those, or natural). Hence, still disagree.
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Offline artimies7

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1021278#msg1021278
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2012, 11:51:09 pm »
A fetus can't become a human without a womb (werether artificial once we manage to build those, or natural). Hence, still disagree.

I was referring to the womb as the suitable environment bit.
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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1021326#msg1021326
« Reply #51 on: December 11, 2012, 04:52:48 am »
A fetus can't become a human without a womb (werether artificial once we manage to build those, or natural). Hence, still disagree.

I was referring to the womb as the suitable environment bit.

And Jenkar was referring to fertilization and a womb as the suitable environment, unless I'm drastically confused.

Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1021329#msg1021329
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2012, 05:02:35 am »
So what are we saying? Fetus' are not humans? Fetus' come after the 'parts' come together as you put it. So, are we saying fetus' are not humans because they cant reproduce yet (although I believe they have their reproductive systems still, just super small, correct me if I am wrong)?
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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1021339#msg1021339
« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2012, 06:01:26 am »
Spermatozoa and eggs may or may not qualify as being alive. (I am uncertain about the scientific consensus) However they have a significant genetic difference from fetuses. The fetus is a different living being that either the sperm or the egg.
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Offline Jenkar

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1021343#msg1021343
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2012, 06:13:44 am »
A fetus can't become a human without a womb (werether artificial once we manage to build those, or natural). Hence, still disagree.

I was referring to the womb as the suitable environment bit.

And Jenkar was referring to fertilization and a womb as the suitable environment, unless I'm drastically confused.
This.

So what are we saying? Fetus' are not humans? Fetus' come after the 'parts' come together as you put it. So, are we saying fetus' are not humans because they cant reproduce yet (although I believe they have their reproductive systems still, just super small, correct me if I am wrong)?
Actually, the discussion (if you look at the start) was on werether fetuses are potential humans while ovas are not (i'm refuting the second part).


Oldtree : agreeed (already said that, too :P
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Offline cometbah

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1021546#msg1021546
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2012, 12:59:20 am »
Spermatozoa and eggs may or may not qualify as being alive. (I am uncertain about the scientific consensus) However they have a significant genetic difference from fetuses. The fetus is a different living being that either the sperm or the egg.

I doubt the 'problem' is of sufficient scientific significance to have an authoritative answer by consensus =9

I think that a gamete, when seen as an entirely independent entity, does not fit the definition of 'life'. However, it could be viewed as 'life-ness' when seen as a component of a larger system, as its existence is necessary for a sexual being to be considered alive.

It should also be noted that while a human (i.e. Homo Sapien) egg / sperm indeed lacks the material to grow into a fully formed Homo Sapien without artificial efforts, this lack is quantitative, not qualitative in nature.

In other words, a sperm can't become a fetus all by itself, not because it doesn't have all the necessary genes, but because it doesn't have enough of it.

This implies that 2 eggs, with artificial help, CAN become a fetus without introducing additional genetic material.

Therefore, regarding this statement:
Neither ovas or ... those other things all on their own will become a living human. So you could destroy as much of them on their own as you want, but when you combine them, then you've got what could be a person one day.

If one were to make arguments based on necessity, that is untrue. Only ONE egg can be destroyed at maximum without destroying an amount of genetic information sufficient to construct a Homo Sapien.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 01:02:57 am by cometbah »

Offline Jenkar

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1021808#msg1021808
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2012, 10:32:17 pm »
Define quantitative versus qualitative. Very thin line you're walking there :P
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Offline artimies7

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1021815#msg1021815
« Reply #57 on: December 12, 2012, 10:56:25 pm »
So what are we saying? Fetus' are not humans? Fetus' come after the 'parts' come together as you put it. So, are we saying fetus' are not humans because they cant reproduce yet (although I believe they have their reproductive systems still, just super small, correct me if I am wrong)?

To my eyes and only my eyes, fetus' are the beginning of human life. Not the middle, or the end, but the seed from which human life springs.
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Offline cometbah

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1021866#msg1021866
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2012, 05:14:09 am »
Define quantitative versus qualitative. Very thin line you're walking there :P

The usual definitions:

Quantitative: of or related to numeric characteristics
Qualitative: of or related to non-numeric characteristics

This would be an example of a 'qualitative lack' of genetic material in any one gamete:
Genome of species is AABB.
Sperm contains AA.
Egg contains BB.

This is a 'quantitative lack':
Genome of species is AABB.
Sperm contains AB.
Egg contains AB.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 05:24:44 am by cometbah »

Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1021885#msg1021885
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2012, 06:30:12 am »
Define quantitative versus qualitative. Very thin line you're walking there :P

The usual definitions:

Quantitative: of or related to numeric characteristics
Qualitative: of or related to non-numeric characteristics

This would be an example of a 'qualitative lack' of genetic material in any one gamete:
Genome of species is AABB.
Sperm contains AA.
Egg contains BB.

This is a 'quantitative lack':
Genome of species is AABB.
Sperm contains AB.
Egg contains AB.

Please explain how example 2 is not qualitative?

Also, what's the point of this argument? I am not following, what am I missing? Please explain.
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