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Offline Jenkar

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1020139#msg1020139
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2012, 06:04:09 pm »
Skin cells are not an organism (at least according to wikipedia and common accepted definition : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organism ). However i see your point.

With that definition, sentient has nothing to do with morals. However i believe that to be human being you not only need sentience but morality (you need to be both Socially competent and a Moral Agent, to take OT's words). This is of course a subjective view.
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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1020204#msg1020204
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2012, 10:19:30 pm »
I am of the opinion that a bundle of cells is considered living when it has sentience. "Cogito ergo sum"

However I do not see what morals have to do with sentience. I may have missed something, however.
1) What do you mean by life? Specifically could you define that terms without using the word living or a synonym?

2) Sentience is the ability to have subjective experience.
It is necessary (and perhaps sufficient) to be able to suffer. Some moral theories are based on the concept that we ought to minimize suffering.
Sentience is used to distinguish between thinking (reason) and feeling (sentience). Some moral theories give more weigh to reasoning being over merely sentience beings.
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1020227#msg1020227
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2012, 12:09:42 am »
So, lets assume for a moment you met a young man (say 25yrs old), married, has a degree, a job, and has absolutely no sense of morality at all. Can you kill him and justify you didn't kill a 'human?'

Also are we saying a definition for being human assumes genetics/morality and other things? If so, why not change abortion to 1yr after a child is born? or change the age to an age before a child understands/has control of his/her conscience?

I don't think morality has much to do with being human. If I had a friend who wasn't born or given a sense of 'morality,' I wouldn't say he's not human or any less human than any of us.
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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1020234#msg1020234
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2012, 12:43:11 am »
So, lets assume for a moment you met a young man (say 25yrs old), married, has a degree, a job, and has absolutely no sense of morality at all. Can you kill him and justify you didn't kill a 'human?'

Also are we saying a definition for being human assumes genetics/morality and other things? If so, why not change abortion to 1yr after a child is born? or change the age to an age before a child understands/has control of his/her conscience?

I don't think morality has much to do with being human. If I had a friend who wasn't born or given a sense of 'morality,' I wouldn't say he's not human or any less human than any of us.
I agree that Moral Agency is not a necessary condition of being human. However I consider Moral Agency more important than being genetically related to Homo Sapiens.

I consider Moral Agency a sufficient but not necessary condition of being capable of being immorally killed.
I consider being related to a human neither a sufficient nor necessary condition of being capable of being immorally killed.


@Jenkar
Why do you consider Socially Competency and Moral Agency to be necessary conditions of being Human?
To me they seem coincidental but relevant characteristics rather than necessary/sufficient conditions.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 12:45:28 am by OldTrees »
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Offline cometbah

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1020244#msg1020244
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2012, 02:05:06 am »
'Human' is a word defined by humans.

Therefore:

P1) Every entity that declares itself human and possesses the ability to define the word 'human' without explicit instruction must be human

P2) All entities defined by confirmed humans (i.e. those satisfying the requirements in P1) to be humans must be humans.

In addition:

P3) A definition that contradicts itself is a false definition.

Assuming that there exists both consistent sets of definition that define fetuses as humans and consistent sets of definition that define fetuses as non-human, a fetus can be either, depending on the group that defines it.

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1020246#msg1020246
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2012, 02:18:40 am »
Without even reading any of the other arguments, I have to say this.
These fetuses have every possibility of becoming sane, rational, living human beings.

If you kill a fetus, you kill the person that it would become. And that's just not cool.
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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1020252#msg1020252
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2012, 02:46:55 am »
Without even reading any of the other arguments, I have to say this.
These fetuses have every possibility of becoming sane, rational, living human beings.

If you kill a fetus, you kill the person that it would become. And that's just not cool.

Let`s extend that logic. Every time a woman menstruates, it wastes an ova that could have become a human if a male had fertilized said egg. Is that cool? (I want to hear you tell me what, if there is, the fundamental difference)

Furthermore, what if it comes at the expense of the mother's life?
Inherently, there are 2 main harms: the physical harm and the economic harm. The physical harm if of course, a medical reason that puts the mother's and/or fetus's life at risk. The economic harm is the condition where the mother is unable to support the child. If the mother was unable to support the child, it puts both of them into a poor quality of life, where neither of them can get what's necessary for a good standard of living. It doesn't kill the mother, but it still causes significant harm to the quality of her life.

Think about the other side of the argument. Think about everybody involved. It's not just about the fetus, it's also about the mother (depending on the question asked, you may also have to consider society and whether it's the government's role to ban abortions). I'm not trying to push one side of the case, just trying to ask you to think about things more in depth.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 02:53:04 am by agentflare »

Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1020263#msg1020263
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2012, 04:17:47 am »
Without even reading any of the other arguments, I have to say this.
These fetuses have every possibility of becoming sane, rational, living human beings.

If you kill a fetus, you kill the person that it would become. And that's just not cool.

Let`s extend that logic. Every time a woman menstruates, it wastes an ova that could have become a human if a male had fertilized said egg. Is that cool? (I want to hear you tell me what, if there is, the fundamental difference)

Furthermore, what if it comes at the expense of the mother's life?
Inherently, there are 2 main harms: the physical harm and the economic harm. The physical harm if of course, a medical reason that puts the mother's and/or fetus's life at risk. The economic harm is the condition where the mother is unable to support the child. If the mother was unable to support the child, it puts both of them into a poor quality of life, where neither of them can get what's necessary for a good standard of living. It doesn't kill the mother, but it still causes significant harm to the quality of her life.

Think about the other side of the argument. Think about everybody involved. It's not just about the fetus, it's also about the mother (depending on the question asked, you may also have to consider society and whether it's the government's role to ban abortions). I'm not trying to push one side of the case, just trying to ask you to think about things more in depth.

Please delete this post. We are not here to argue if abortion is right or wrong. You can post that in the abortion topic which this topic is an extension of. We are here to discuss if fetus' are humans (if we come up with some type of answer I will post in abortion topic).

The one guy who said that you are human if only defined as so...wrong. You can't say humans decide what is and what isn't. If every human got together and decided 2+2=5, does that mean 2+2=5 now? no, 2+2 still is =4.

Now, fetus' becoming humans...I would like to elaborate on this. I think this is a valid point worth discussing...there is no evidence of something non human becoming human yet. Only the human genetics have become human so far (This conflicts me if I should include genetics as becoming human or not). Let's go ahead and talk about this.

Anyone know of any evidence to refute or help the argument above?
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Offline Elbirn

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1020264#msg1020264
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2012, 04:25:37 am »
Quote
The one guy who said that you are human if only defined as so...wrong. You can't say humans decide what is and what isn't. If every human got together and decided 2+2=5, does that mean 2+2=5 now? no, 2+2 still is =4.

Actually, that's incorrect. If we all decided that 2+2=5, that would be the way of things. The number 5 doesn't exist, it's an invention of man. It's a symbol of a quantity and is thus whatever was say.

Example: Each fire mark represents an apple.

 I have two apples: :fire :fire
And you have two apples:  :fire :fire
If I beat you over the head with a billy club and take your apples, I have four apples:  :fire :fire :fire :fire
However, if the Secret Society of mathemagicians decide that five is now four and four is five, then I have five apples:  :fire :fire :fire :fire
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Offline northcity4Topic starter

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1020271#msg1020271
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2012, 05:19:52 am »
Thats not what I meant.

2+2=4 by definition. 4 is like morality, it's always been 4.

2+2=5 is saying 5=4 which is incorrect.

Now to say we will make 5=4 for math purposes is fine, but in TRUTH 2+2 =/=5.

Better way to illustrate it: A missile explodes a city. All of humanity denies it ever happened, but it really did happen, is it suddenly a false event based on what humanity said? no,

in the same way, humans do not justify what is human and what is not. We go by what is fact and what is true.

True facts: fetus' become obvious human if you let them grow. No other 'thing' has grown to be human (you have any evidence to refute this?)

What I am asking is for evidence to show any other 'thing' becoming human.
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Offline Jenkar

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1020276#msg1020276
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2012, 05:49:50 am »
So, lets assume for a moment you met a young man (say 25yrs old), married, has a degree, a job, and has absolutely no sense of morality at all. Can you kill him and justify you didn't kill a 'human?'

Also are we saying a definition for being human assumes genetics/morality and other things? If so, why not change abortion to 1yr after a child is born? or change the age to an age before a child understands/has control of his/her conscience?

I don't think morality has much to do with being human. If I had a friend who wasn't born or given a sense of 'morality,' I wouldn't say he's not human or any less human than any of us.
I agree that Moral Agency is not a necessary condition of being human. However I consider Moral Agency more important than being genetically related to Homo Sapiens.

I consider Moral Agency a sufficient but not necessary condition of being capable of being immorally killed.
I consider being related to a human neither a sufficient nor necessary condition of being capable of being immorally killed.


@Jenkar
Why do you consider Socially Competency and Moral Agency to be necessary conditions of being Human?
To me they seem coincidental but relevant characteristics rather than necessary/sufficient conditions.
I would not be able to relate to something/one without both.

northcity4 : if you are willing to push the argument farther, some of the building blocks that have been eaten at some point by either the mother or the father are transformed into a physical human.
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Offline cometbah

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Re: Are fetus' humans? https://elementscommunity.org/forum/index.php?topic=44991.msg1020294#msg1020294
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2012, 07:52:46 am »
Thats not what I meant.

2+2=4 by definition. 4 is like morality, it's always been 4.

2+2=5 is saying 5=4 which is incorrect.

Now to say we will make 5=4 for math purposes is fine, but in TRUTH 2+2 =/=5.

Better way to illustrate it: A missile explodes a city. All of humanity denies it ever happened, but it really did happen, is it suddenly a false event based on what humanity said? no,

in the same way, humans do not justify what is human and what is not. We go by what is fact and what is true.

True facts: fetus' become obvious human if you let them grow. No other 'thing' has grown to be human (you have any evidence to refute this?)

What I am asking is for evidence to show any other 'thing' becoming human.

As you have written, 2 + 2 = 4 by definition.

Nothing exists without being defined.

For example, in certain cultures, there are no distinction between a 'chair' and a 'table'. The collection of matter you call a 'chair' does objectively exist when presented to someone from such a culture, however, it does not exist as a chair.

Similarly, some things exist to some as humans, but not to others.

Incidentally, 2+2=4 comes from the following method of mathematical construction (skip everything except the last sentence (conclusion) if you would like):

Spoiler for Hidden:
We begin with an empty set, represented as:

{}

We construct a set that contains the empty set:

{ {} }

We construct a set that contains both the set that contains the empty set, and the empty set itself:

{ {}, { {} } }

We construct a set that contains the previous set, the one before the previous set, and the empty set:

{ {}, { {} }, { {}, { {} } } }

And so on.

Now, we define something called 'cardinality', and put each constructed set into a 1-to-1 corresponding relationship with each 'thing' that is a cardinality:

{}                                   -----------> Thing A
{{}}                               -----------> Thing B
{{},{{}}}                      -----------> Thing C
{{},{{}},{{},{{}}}}    -----------> Thing D

... and so on.

We choose to give alternative names to these 'things'.

Thing A will be '0'.

Thing B will be '1'.

Thing C will be '2'.

Thing D will be '3'.

... and so on.

The 'Essence of Numbers', or 'Truth', as you put it, is in the relationship between the sets. Their order is determined by their ability to construct each other. Thing B cannot be constructed without first constructing Thing A, therefore Thing A is considered 'smaller'.


Summary: mathematical truth rests entirely on human definition. Systems do not exist without axioms. Entities do not exist without definition.

My three propositions include the possibility of something non-human becoming a human, by P1. It also gets around the problem of 'the tyranny of democracy', with which you seem to be concerned.

For example:

If an AI were to achieve human-level consciousness, and declares itself human, then it is human (by P1).

If a slave declares itself human, then it is human, even if his master disagrees (again, by P1).

If you declare yourself human, but every other human disagrees, you are still human (P1).

However:

A pen cannot declare itself human. A group of humans define it as a non-human. Then to that group of human, the pen is non-human (P2).

An elephant cannot declare itself human. However, a group of humans worship elephants and declare the elephant to be human. Then to that particular group of humans, the elephant is a human (P2).

A fetus cannot declare itself human. If a group of humans declare it human, then it is. If not, then not.

Concerning your question of what can become a fully formed human (e.g. me):

A single cell (any cell - even a skin cell), with today's technology, can grow into a fully formed human. In the foreseeable future, simply protein chains would suffice.

Some believe that A.I.s can achieve humanity.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 11:18:53 am by cometbah »

 

blarg: