A truly sadistic choice

[Tymalous]

*sigh* That was what I was asking you the whole time, and what I was trying to explain.
By progress I mean to continue on the path of evolution. I hope that you can understand me now. Please read my previous post again.

Oh. Sorry to inform you but evolution does not have a path. Evolution does not have a goal. Those erroneous Aristotelian concepts were tossed out by the discovery Natural Selection.
Source: I am a undergraduate student of Genetics.

Yes, so what I mean by evolution is becoming better and better. Or are you saying that the progress we humans make cannot be called evolution?
And so, the next logical step in our development is the fact that we stop thinking about our basic desires and devote ourselves to what you call Scientific Progress and Philosophic Progress. The only way that can happen is by changing this society and therefore suffering is required.

OT: Everything has a goal. We just don't know the purpose of our life yet.

So any form of improvement is progress correct? Education is a form of improvement. Therefore Education is a form of progress and we are back to my argument.

My current argument:
1) Progress relative to a goal is moving toward the goal.
2) Education moves towards the goal of knowledge.
3) Education does not require suffering
4=1+2) Education is a form of progress
5=3+4) There exist forms of progress (like education) that do not require suffering to progress.

I'm just curious, do you even ready my posts or what?
What I said was this:

1. Change will finally lead to a situation where, unlike our current situation, progress is gained through order and education. When that kind of society is made there is no more need for change.
2. To achieve that society we need change.
3. Change requires suffering.
1+2+3. Suffering is required for progres until there is no more need for change. No more need for change leads to no more need for suffering. So to achieve 1 we need to progress through 2+3.

You have not yet replied to that.

[OldTrees]

*sigh* That was what I was asking you the whole time, and what I was trying to explain.
By progress I mean to continue on the path of evolution. I hope that you can understand me now. Please read my previous post again.

Oh. Sorry to inform you but evolution does not have a path. Evolution does not have a goal. Those erroneous Aristotelian concepts were tossed out by the discovery Natural Selection.
Source: I am a undergraduate student of Genetics.

Yes, so what I mean by evolution is becoming better and better. Or are you saying that the progress we humans make cannot be called evolution?
And so, the next logical step in our development is the fact that we stop thinking about our basic desires and devote ourselves to what you call Scientific Progress and Philosophic Progress. The only way that can happen is by changing this society and therefore suffering is required.

OT: Everything has a goal. We just don't know the purpose of our life yet.

So any form of improvement is progress correct? Education is a form of improvement. Therefore Education is a form of progress and we are back to my argument.

My current argument:
1) Progress relative to a goal is moving toward the goal.
2) Education moves towards the goal of knowledge.
3) Education does not require suffering
4=1+2) Education is a form of progress
5=3+4) There exist forms of progress (like education) that do not require suffering to progress.

I'm just curious, do you even ready my posts or what?
What I said was this:

1. Change will finally lead to a situation where, unlike our current situation, progress is gained through order and education. When that kind of society is made there is no more need for change.
2. To achieve that society we need change.
3. Change requires suffering.
1+2+3. Suffering is required for progres until there is no more need for change. No more need for change leads to no more need for suffering. So to achieve 1 we need to progress through 2+3.

You have not yet replied to that.

I read your posts. You said progress is getting better and better (aka improvement). Wisdom and Knowledge are better than Foolishness and Ignorance. Therefore Education is a form of progress.

So far you have been repeating
"There exist forms of progress that require suffering."
However you have been arguing that
"All forms of progress require suffering"
I contest that
"There exist forms of improvement (progress) like Scientific progress that do not require suffering."

[Tymalous]

*sigh* That was what I was asking you the whole time, and what I was trying to explain.
By progress I mean to continue on the path of evolution. I hope that you can understand me now. Please read my previous post again.

Oh. Sorry to inform you but evolution does not have a path. Evolution does not have a goal. Those erroneous Aristotelian concepts were tossed out by the discovery Natural Selection.
Source: I am a undergraduate student of Genetics.

Yes, so what I mean by evolution is becoming better and better. Or are you saying that the progress we humans make cannot be called evolution?
And so, the next logical step in our development is the fact that we stop thinking about our basic desires and devote ourselves to what you call Scientific Progress and Philosophic Progress. The only way that can happen is by changing this society and therefore suffering is required.

OT: Everything has a goal. We just don't know the purpose of our life yet.

So any form of improvement is progress correct? Education is a form of improvement. Therefore Education is a form of progress and we are back to my argument.

My current argument:
1) Progress relative to a goal is moving toward the goal.
2) Education moves towards the goal of knowledge.
3) Education does not require suffering
4=1+2) Education is a form of progress
5=3+4) There exist forms of progress (like education) that do not require suffering to progress.

I'm just curious, do you even ready my posts or what?
What I said was this:

1. Change will finally lead to a situation where, unlike our current situation, progress is gained through order and education. When that kind of society is made there is no more need for change.
2. To achieve that society we need change.
3. Change requires suffering.
1+2+3. Suffering is required for progres until there is no more need for change. No more need for change leads to no more need for suffering. So to achieve 1 we need to progress through 2+3.

You have not yet replied to that.

I read your posts. You said progress is getting better and better (aka improvement). Wisdom and Knowledge are better than Foolishness and Ignorance. Therefore Education is a form of progress.

Yes, it is, but you still have not replied to this:

1. Change will finally lead to a situation where, unlike our current situation, progress is gained only through order and thus education. When that kind of society is made there is no more need for change.
2. To achieve that society we need change.
3. Change requires suffering.
1+2+3. Suffering is required for progres until there is no more need for change. No more need for change leads to no more need for suffering. So to achieve 1 we need to progress through 2+3.

Let's take our situation now. Do you think that education is enough in this time for change to happen? Or, better said, do you even agree that a change of society is required if your situation is to be used? Or do you think that our current situation (with, as I said, the current society, greed etc) does not require any change?

[OldTrees]

*sigh* That was what I was asking you the whole time, and what I was trying to explain.
By progress I mean to continue on the path of evolution. I hope that you can understand me now. Please read my previous post again.

Oh. Sorry to inform you but evolution does not have a path. Evolution does not have a goal. Those erroneous Aristotelian concepts were tossed out by the discovery Natural Selection.
Source: I am a undergraduate student of Genetics.

Yes, so what I mean by evolution is becoming better and better. Or are you saying that the progress we humans make cannot be called evolution?
And so, the next logical step in our development is the fact that we stop thinking about our basic desires and devote ourselves to what you call Scientific Progress and Philosophic Progress. The only way that can happen is by changing this society and therefore suffering is required.

OT: Everything has a goal. We just don't know the purpose of our life yet.

So any form of improvement is progress correct? Education is a form of improvement. Therefore Education is a form of progress and we are back to my argument.

My current argument:
1) Progress relative to a goal is moving toward the goal.
2) Education moves towards the goal of knowledge.
3) Education does not require suffering
4=1+2) Education is a form of progress
5=3+4) There exist forms of progress (like education) that do not require suffering to progress.

I'm just curious, do you even ready my posts or what?
What I said was this:

1. Change will finally lead to a situation where, unlike our current situation, progress is gained through order and education. When that kind of society is made there is no more need for change.
2. To achieve that society we need change.
3. Change requires suffering.
1+2+3. Suffering is required for progres until there is no more need for change. No more need for change leads to no more need for suffering. So to achieve 1 we need to progress through 2+3.

You have not yet replied to that.

I read your posts. You said progress is getting better and better (aka improvement). Wisdom and Knowledge are better than Foolishness and Ignorance. Therefore Education is a form of progress.

Yes, it is, but you still have not replied to this:

1. Change will finally lead to a situation where, unlike our current situation, progress is gained only through order and thus education. When that kind of society is made there is no more need for change.
2. To achieve that society we need change.
3. Change requires suffering.
1+2+3. Suffering is required for progres until there is no more need for change. No more need for change leads to no more need for suffering. So to achieve 1 we need to progress through 2+3.

Let's take our situation now. Do you think that education is enough in this time for change to happen? Or, better said, do you even agree that a change of society is required if your situation is to be used? Or do you think that our current situation (with, as I said, the current society, greed etc) does not require any change?

I have not addressed that because it was not very clear. (Hence my asking you for a definition of progress)
1) Change will lead to a situation where improvement does not require change.
Obviously false. Improvement requires there be change from the past to the future. If there was no change then there was no improvement.
2) To reach the situation in [1] we need change.
True. Currently improvement necessitates change. For that to change requires change.
3) Change requires suffering.
False. Day changes to night without requiring suffering.

However that does not address the other forms of progress (improvement) like scientific progress and thus is irrelevant to your claim that ALL forms of progress require suffering.

I have given Scientific progress as a counterexample to your thesis that all form of progress require suffering. Please address my counterexample.

[Tymalous]

*sigh* That was what I was asking you the whole time, and what I was trying to explain.
By progress I mean to continue on the path of evolution. I hope that you can understand me now. Please read my previous post again.

Oh. Sorry to inform you but evolution does not have a path. Evolution does not have a goal. Those erroneous Aristotelian concepts were tossed out by the discovery Natural Selection.
Source: I am a undergraduate student of Genetics.

Yes, so what I mean by evolution is becoming better and better. Or are you saying that the progress we humans make cannot be called evolution?
And so, the next logical step in our development is the fact that we stop thinking about our basic desires and devote ourselves to what you call Scientific Progress and Philosophic Progress. The only way that can happen is by changing this society and therefore suffering is required.

OT: Everything has a goal. We just don't know the purpose of our life yet.

So any form of improvement is progress correct? Education is a form of improvement. Therefore Education is a form of progress and we are back to my argument.

My current argument:
1) Progress relative to a goal is moving toward the goal.
2) Education moves towards the goal of knowledge.
3) Education does not require suffering
4=1+2) Education is a form of progress
5=3+4) There exist forms of progress (like education) that do not require suffering to progress.

I'm just curious, do you even ready my posts or what?
What I said was this:

1. Change will finally lead to a situation where, unlike our current situation, progress is gained through order and education. When that kind of society is made there is no more need for change.
2. To achieve that society we need change.
3. Change requires suffering.
1+2+3. Suffering is required for progres until there is no more need for change. No more need for change leads to no more need for suffering. So to achieve 1 we need to progress through 2+3.

You have not yet replied to that.

I read your posts. You said progress is getting better and better (aka improvement). Wisdom and Knowledge are better than Foolishness and Ignorance. Therefore Education is a form of progress.

Yes, it is, but you still have not replied to this:

1. Change will finally lead to a situation where, unlike our current situation, progress is gained only through order and thus education. When that kind of society is made there is no more need for change.
2. To achieve that society we need change.
3. Change requires suffering.
1+2+3. Suffering is required for progres until there is no more need for change. No more need for change leads to no more need for suffering. So to achieve 1 we need to progress through 2+3.

Let's take our situation now. Do you think that education is enough in this time for change to happen? Or, better said, do you even agree that a change of society is required if your situation is to be used? Or do you think that our current situation (with, as I said, the current society, greed etc) does not require any change?

I have not addressed that because it was not very clear. (Hence my asking you for a definition of progress)
1) Change will lead to a situation where improvement does not require change.
Obviously false. Improvement requires there be change from the past to the future. If there was no change then there was no improvement.
2) To reach the situation in [1] we need change.
True. Currently improvement necessitates change. For that to change requires change.
3) Change requires suffering.
False. Day changes to night without requiring suffering.

However that does not address the other forms of progress (improvement) like scientific progress and thus is irrelevant to your claim that ALL forms of progress require suffering.

I have given Scientific progress as a counterexample to your thesis that all form of progress require suffering. Please address my counterexample.

1. I disagree. source: I could quote Marx.
2. You agree. Good. See my point below.
3. The cycles of day and night are not what I mean with change. I hope it was a joke.

Here is it said simple: Progress in general requires suffering.
Why? Because science and philosophy and education are not enough to change something, and change is required for progress
Why? Because there cannot be change, real change, the change I mean (building a new society like after WW I and II, after French Rev. etc) without suffering.
Why? I leave that for you to answer.

[OldTrees]

*sigh* That was what I was asking you the whole time, and what I was trying to explain.
By progress I mean to continue on the path of evolution. I hope that you can understand me now. Please read my previous post again.

Oh. Sorry to inform you but evolution does not have a path. Evolution does not have a goal. Those erroneous Aristotelian concepts were tossed out by the discovery Natural Selection.
Source: I am a undergraduate student of Genetics.

Yes, so what I mean by evolution is becoming better and better. Or are you saying that the progress we humans make cannot be called evolution?
And so, the next logical step in our development is the fact that we stop thinking about our basic desires and devote ourselves to what you call Scientific Progress and Philosophic Progress. The only way that can happen is by changing this society and therefore suffering is required.

OT: Everything has a goal. We just don't know the purpose of our life yet.

So any form of improvement is progress correct? Education is a form of improvement. Therefore Education is a form of progress and we are back to my argument.

My current argument:
1) Progress relative to a goal is moving toward the goal.
2) Education moves towards the goal of knowledge.
3) Education does not require suffering
4=1+2) Education is a form of progress
5=3+4) There exist forms of progress (like education) that do not require suffering to progress.

I'm just curious, do you even ready my posts or what?
What I said was this:

1. Change will finally lead to a situation where, unlike our current situation, progress is gained through order and education. When that kind of society is made there is no more need for change.
2. To achieve that society we need change.
3. Change requires suffering.
1+2+3. Suffering is required for progres until there is no more need for change. No more need for change leads to no more need for suffering. So to achieve 1 we need to progress through 2+3.

You have not yet replied to that.

I read your posts. You said progress is getting better and better (aka improvement). Wisdom and Knowledge are better than Foolishness and Ignorance. Therefore Education is a form of progress.

Yes, it is, but you still have not replied to this:

1. Change will finally lead to a situation where, unlike our current situation, progress is gained only through order and thus education. When that kind of society is made there is no more need for change.
2. To achieve that society we need change.
3. Change requires suffering.
1+2+3. Suffering is required for progres until there is no more need for change. No more need for change leads to no more need for suffering. So to achieve 1 we need to progress through 2+3.

Let's take our situation now. Do you think that education is enough in this time for change to happen? Or, better said, do you even agree that a change of society is required if your situation is to be used? Or do you think that our current situation (with, as I said, the current society, greed etc) does not require any change?

I have not addressed that because it was not very clear. (Hence my asking you for a definition of progress)
1) Change will lead to a situation where improvement does not require change.
Obviously false. Improvement requires there be change from the past to the future. If there was no change then there was no improvement.
2) To reach the situation in [1] we need change.
True. Currently improvement necessitates change. For that to change requires change.
3) Change requires suffering.
False. Day changes to night without requiring suffering.

However that does not address the other forms of progress (improvement) like scientific progress and thus is irrelevant to your claim that ALL forms of progress require suffering.

I have given Scientific progress as a counterexample to your thesis that all form of progress require suffering. Please address my counterexample.

1. I disagree. source: I could quote Marx.
2. You agree. Good. See my point below.
3. The cycles of day and night are not what I mean with change. I hope it was a joke.

Here is it said simple: Progress in general requires suffering.
Why? Because science and philosophy and education are not enough to change something, and change is required for progress
Why? Because there cannot be change, real change, the change I mean (building a new society like after WW I and II, after French Rev. etc) without suffering.
Why? I leave that for you to answer.

1 & 3 are related because you are ignoring a majority of change that occurs. When you mean of subset of a word please specify (see below).
Specific forms of progress (like the increased wealth of society) can result from change like the passage of time and do not require the subset of the word change that you are restricting yourself to.

"Progress in general requires suffering." So Progress in specific does not necessarily necessitate suffering?
So you are referring to a subset of the forms of progress beyond the subset defined by improvement. Would you please define this subset?

So the next step in our discussion is for you to define what subset of the words change and progress you mean. While your at it would you give a definition of the subset of suffering you are going to be using as well?

PS: I would like that quote so I can critique your usage/interpretation of it.

[Tymalous]

*sigh* That was what I was asking you the whole time, and what I was trying to explain.
By progress I mean to continue on the path of evolution. I hope that you can understand me now. Please read my previous post again.

Oh. Sorry to inform you but evolution does not have a path. Evolution does not have a goal. Those erroneous Aristotelian concepts were tossed out by the discovery Natural Selection.
Source: I am a undergraduate student of Genetics.

Yes, so what I mean by evolution is becoming better and better. Or are you saying that the progress we humans make cannot be called evolution?
And so, the next logical step in our development is the fact that we stop thinking about our basic desires and devote ourselves to what you call Scientific Progress and Philosophic Progress. The only way that can happen is by changing this society and therefore suffering is required.

OT: Everything has a goal. We just don't know the purpose of our life yet.

So any form of improvement is progress correct? Education is a form of improvement. Therefore Education is a form of progress and we are back to my argument.

My current argument:
1) Progress relative to a goal is moving toward the goal.
2) Education moves towards the goal of knowledge.
3) Education does not require suffering
4=1+2) Education is a form of progress
5=3+4) There exist forms of progress (like education) that do not require suffering to progress.

I'm just curious, do you even ready my posts or what?
What I said was this:

1. Change will finally lead to a situation where, unlike our current situation, progress is gained through order and education. When that kind of society is made there is no more need for change.
2. To achieve that society we need change.
3. Change requires suffering.
1+2+3. Suffering is required for progres until there is no more need for change. No more need for change leads to no more need for suffering. So to achieve 1 we need to progress through 2+3.

You have not yet replied to that.

I read your posts. You said progress is getting better and better (aka improvement). Wisdom and Knowledge are better than Foolishness and Ignorance. Therefore Education is a form of progress.

Yes, it is, but you still have not replied to this:

1. Change will finally lead to a situation where, unlike our current situation, progress is gained only through order and thus education. When that kind of society is made there is no more need for change.
2. To achieve that society we need change.
3. Change requires suffering.
1+2+3. Suffering is required for progres until there is no more need for change. No more need for change leads to no more need for suffering. So to achieve 1 we need to progress through 2+3.

Let's take our situation now. Do you think that education is enough in this time for change to happen? Or, better said, do you even agree that a change of society is required if your situation is to be used? Or do you think that our current situation (with, as I said, the current society, greed etc) does not require any change?

I have not addressed that because it was not very clear. (Hence my asking you for a definition of progress)
1) Change will lead to a situation where improvement does not require change.
Obviously false. Improvement requires there be change from the past to the future. If there was no change then there was no improvement.
2) To reach the situation in [1] we need change.
True. Currently improvement necessitates change. For that to change requires change.
3) Change requires suffering.
False. Day changes to night without requiring suffering.

However that does not address the other forms of progress (improvement) like scientific progress and thus is irrelevant to your claim that ALL forms of progress require suffering.

I have given Scientific progress as a counterexample to your thesis that all form of progress require suffering. Please address my counterexample.

1. I disagree. source: I could quote Marx.
2. You agree. Good. See my point below.
3. The cycles of day and night are not what I mean with change. I hope it was a joke.

Here is it said simple: Progress in general requires suffering.
Why? Because science and philosophy and education are not enough to change something, and change is required for progress
Why? Because there cannot be change, real change, the change I mean (building a new society like after WW I and II, after French Rev. etc) without suffering.
Why? I leave that for you to answer.

1 & 3 are related because you are ignoring a majority of change that occurs. When you mean of subset of a word please specify (see below).
Specific forms of progress (like the increased wealth of society) can result from change like the passage of time and do not require the subset of the word change that you are restricting yourself to.

"Progress in general requires suffering." So Progress in specific does not necessarily necessitate suffering?
So you are referring to a subset of the forms of progress beyond the subset defined by improvement. Would you please define this subset?

So the next step in our discussion is for you to define what subset of the words change and progress you mean. While your at it would you give a definition of the subset of suffering you are going to be using as well?

PS: I would like that quote so I can critique your usage/interpretation of it.

I have already mentioned what I see as progress and change. I don't know why I'm not referring to the fact that you do not seem to read my posts at all, but I'll try to stay nice.

With progress in general I do actually mean progress in general. For example, I do not mean the little forms of progress like technological advancement, but more the advancement of the humankind.
The same thing with change. I refer to change in general. Not the little changes like day and night, but the more global ones like the change of society itself. (And for that to happen, the views of the people living in that society must change as well).

And suffering, well, to be honest I don't really know what is meant with it in this thread, but I assume the general view of what suffering is. I therefore quote Wikipedia:

Suffering, or pain in a broad sense,[1] is an individual's basic affective experience of unpleasantness and aversion associated with harm or threat of harm. Suffering may be qualified as physical[2] or mental.[3] It may come in all degrees of intensity, from mild to intolerable.

As with Marx, well I don't feel like plowing through internet to find it. I think you do know what I mean, that after a long time of conflict between the worker class and the top class (I don't remember the exact words), there will be a world where there are no classes.

Now, for this discussion to progress I would like to ask you to do same thing as I just did: explain what you mean by your usage of progress, change and suffering.

[OldTrees]

1 & 3 are related because you are ignoring a majority of change that occurs. When you mean of subset of a word please specify (see below).
Specific forms of progress (like the increased wealth of society) can result from change like the passage of time and do not require the subset of the word change that you are restricting yourself to.

"Progress in general requires suffering." So Progress in specific does not necessarily necessitate suffering?
So you are referring to a subset of the forms of progress beyond the subset defined by improvement. Would you please define this subset?

So the next step in our discussion is for you to define what subset of the words change and progress you mean. While your at it would you give a definition of the subset of suffering you are going to be using as well?

PS: I would like that quote so I can critique your usage/interpretation of it.

I have already mentioned what I see as progress and change. I don't know why I'm not referring to the fact that you do not seem to read my posts at all, but I'll try to stay nice.

With progress in general I do actually mean progress in general. For example, I do not mean the little forms of progress like technological advancement, but more the advancement of the humankind.
The same thing with change. I refer to change in general. Not the little changes like day and night, but the more global ones like the change of society itself. (And for that to happen, the views of the people living in that society must change as well).

And suffering, well, to be honest I don't really know what is meant with it in this thread, but I assume the general view of what suffering is. I therefore quote Wikipedia:

Suffering, or pain in a broad sense,[1] is an individual's basic affective experience of unpleasantness and aversion associated with harm or threat of harm. Suffering may be qualified as physical[2] or mental.[3] It may come in all degrees of intensity, from mild to intolerable.

As with Marx, well I don't feel like plowing through internet to find it. I think you do know what I mean, that after a long time of conflict between the worker class and the top class (I don't remember the exact words), there will be a world where there are no classes.

Now, for this discussion to progress I would like to ask you to do same thing as I just did: explain what you mean by your usage of progress, change and suffering.

I do read you posts. I have not been understanding your usages.

My usages so far:
Progress:
1) A step or steps toward a goal. (my first definition)
2) Improvement of human(s). (my first interpretation of your definition)
Change:
1) The alteration of anything. (my first definition)
Suffering:
1) Subjective displeasure. Either from a mental source or as a mental reaction to a physical source.

If I understand your definitions correctly:
Progress:
3) Human improvement in all areas.
Change:
2) Alternations of society of great magnitude.
Suffering:
We agree closely enough. This was mostly just to make sure.

So now that your definitions are clearer to me your argument seems to be that:
"Human improvement in all areas" requires "Alternations of society of great magnitude"
"Alternations of society of great magnitude" cause suffering.
"Human improvement in all areas" requires suffering.

For the new thesis of "There exists forms of improvement that require suffering." which is compatible with my thesis of "There exists forms of improvement that don't suffering".

Did I understand this time?

Much of the debate (see quote below) revolved around your arguments being read as claiming that all improvement required suffering. Being specific and clear with definitions resolved our confusion.

I choose B because without suffering there would not be any progress.

Now that is an ignorant statement. Progress is in no way dependent on suffering.
Sure, progress in a certain direction due to a certain event may require suffering, but progress as a whole does not.

[Tymalous]

1 & 3 are related because you are ignoring a majority of change that occurs. When you mean of subset of a word please specify (see below).
Specific forms of progress (like the increased wealth of society) can result from change like the passage of time and do not require the subset of the word change that you are restricting yourself to.

"Progress in general requires suffering." So Progress in specific does not necessarily necessitate suffering?
So you are referring to a subset of the forms of progress beyond the subset defined by improvement. Would you please define this subset?

So the next step in our discussion is for you to define what subset of the words change and progress you mean. While your at it would you give a definition of the subset of suffering you are going to be using as well?

PS: I would like that quote so I can critique your usage/interpretation of it.

I have already mentioned what I see as progress and change. I don't know why I'm not referring to the fact that you do not seem to read my posts at all, but I'll try to stay nice.

With progress in general I do actually mean progress in general. For example, I do not mean the little forms of progress like technological advancement, but more the advancement of the humankind.
The same thing with change. I refer to change in general. Not the little changes like day and night, but the more global ones like the change of society itself. (And for that to happen, the views of the people living in that society must change as well).

And suffering, well, to be honest I don't really know what is meant with it in this thread, but I assume the general view of what suffering is. I therefore quote Wikipedia:

Suffering, or pain in a broad sense,[1] is an individual's basic affective experience of unpleasantness and aversion associated with harm or threat of harm. Suffering may be qualified as physical[2] or mental.[3] It may come in all degrees of intensity, from mild to intolerable.

As with Marx, well I don't feel like plowing through internet to find it. I think you do know what I mean, that after a long time of conflict between the worker class and the top class (I don't remember the exact words), there will be a world where there are no classes.

Now, for this discussion to progress I would like to ask you to do same thing as I just did: explain what you mean by your usage of progress, change and suffering.

I do read you posts. I have not been understanding your usages.

My usages so far:
Progress:
1) A step or steps toward a goal. (my first definition)
2) Improvement of human(s). (my first interpretation of your definition)
Change:
1) The alteration of anything. (my first definition)
Suffering:
1) Subjective displeasure. Either from a mental source or as a mental reaction to a physical source.

If I understand your definitions correctly:
Progress:
3) Human improvement in all areas.
Change:
2) Alternations of society of great magnitude.
Suffering:
We agree closely enough. This was mostly just to make sure.

So now that your definitions are clearer to me your argument seems to be that:
"Human improvement in all areas" requires "Alternations of society of great magnitude"
"Alternations of society of great magnitude" cause suffering.
"Human improvement in all areas" requires suffering.

For the new thesis of "There exists forms of improvement that require suffering." which is compatible with my thesis of "There exists forms of improvement that don't suffering".

Did I understand this time?

Much of the debate (see quote below) revolved around your arguments being read as claiming that all improvement required suffering. Being specific and clear with definitions resolved our confusion.

I choose B because without suffering there would not be any progress.

Now that is an ignorant statement. Progress is in no way dependent on suffering.
Sure, progress in a certain direction due to a certain event may require suffering, but progress as a whole does not.

I think you do.
So if I understand correctly, then you agree with the following:

For progress in general, change is required.
For change in general, suffering is required.

Then I agree with:

Some progress can be made without suffering.
Some change can be made without suffering.

[Feuerhose]

Like Buddha said: Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

I choose B without hesitating.

Here is a link to the whole text.
http://buddhistsangha.tripod.com/noblepath2.htm

[erasenvoy]

i choose b, without suffering we can't enjoy the pleasures of life.

[Feuerhose]

and thats why pain motivates us to move our asses 

though today is a day, were I wish a certain amount of pain on a certain person... yes you! no not you...him. he knows what i´m talking about...